All Aircraft Are Not Involved

socrates wrote:those white-outs don't look like those that showed up around the year 2000 or a bit earlier.

They look exactly the same to me.

Increased air traffic - stale.

Truth seems stale to you?

consistent claims of witnesses that the white-outs are being created much lower than that.

But not one proof, with all those videocams...

It's good that you were banned from youtube. No one likes to read spam.

Policemen are nasty people that attack burglars. That seem reasonable to you?

figured out a lot about fake chemmies - according to you, it appears that I am just smearing them

Really? Does it? Did I say so?

because they disagree with me.

How could they possibly do that?

So it doesn't even matter, according to you, if a sophisticated fake chemmie/fake debunker script has been uncovered.

A script using scientific truth? NO - it doesn't. I quote: "Just because someone gets caught in lies, does not mean everything they post is lies."

In a controlled opposition <snip> whole stinking disinfo ship..

I can appreciate your concern about that. It's the mess we have to swim in. I don't give a monkey's fart for such stupid shenanigans - my only concern is science and logic. It seems to me that arguments using these two themes can continue unobstructed through the above-mentioned crap.

This forum wasn't established so people like yourself could show up and change the tempo.

Gosh. I know what that is code for.

Your past spamming attempts and bullying efforts are taken into consideration when reading these present efforts.

You seem keen to define what I'm doing here as some pre-arranged agenda. If a LIAR sets up business in YouTube, is that OK? If someone calls out the lie, is that SPAM?

As for David Icke and the Outlaw Forum, those are two of the worst websites on the whole internet. Why you would want to post there is beyond my imagination. I can see how Uri stayed on a fair bit to set the record straight about the neo-nazi ideology being spammed, but for you to say you are such an intellect, yet post at those kinds of places, is hard to make sense of.

Three days at Icke? Setting the record straight about CTs and Evolution was wrong when I did it in Outlaw - yet Uri was OK in the same activity re NeoNazis? Whoa! Did I call myself an intellectual?

Just because someone gets caught in lies, does not mean everything they post is lies. The preponderance of evidence shows that a "chemtrails are kooky" script has been put in place. There is something referred to as concern trolling. Folks will make it appear that they are one of the good guys. They will post things that make sense in order to gain the reader's confidence. But what goes on with such folks is a confidence game.

I think you're succombing to paranoia here. If you feel in advance you are going to lose an argument with me, and it makes you wish to repel me, you should ask yourself why. If I am about to win an argument by reason alone, then as a reasonable man you should anticipate that possibility with pleasure. Otherwise what else is there? Unreason and fear?

I'm sorry, but it doesn't look like things are working out here. Nothing personal, but I'm starting to remember how annoying you can be. Take my advice and go to DebateBothSides. I kind of don't want you here.

Well, I assume that means you don't want to consider reason, science and logic. There hasn't been anything like that from you so far. It's strange, but try as I might, I just don't see you as malicious.

anthony.r.duncan wrote:

Just because someone gets caught in lies, does not mean everything they post is lies. The preponderance of evidence shows that a "chemtrails are kooky" script has been put in place. There is something referred to as concern trolling. Folks will make it appear that they are one of the good guys. They will post things that make sense in order to gain the reader's confidence. But what goes on with such folks is a confidence game.

I think you're succombing to paranoia here. If you feel in advance you are going to lose an argument with me, and it makes you wish to repel me, you should ask yourself why. If I am about to win an argument by reason alone, then as a reasonable man you should anticipate that possibility with pleasure. Otherwise what else is there? Unreason and fear?

I don't like your attitude. It's too confrontational for me. I also don't like the way you present your arguments. Not everyone is into debate. Some of us are looking for dialogue.

To say I am slipping into paranoia is to not give the chance to offer proof. I'm not saying to read through the whole following 463 page pdf, but here is proof that the internet does get gamed. This is not about winning and losing. Not everything is cut and dried.

Proof that the DailyKos has been at a minimum gamed

There is also other proof that this activity has been condoned by Kos administrators, has been going on for years, and that this same person UGOG/MajorFlaw was pulling the same crap at the Democratic Underground. It's not paranoia, if it can be proven.

I'm sorry, but it doesn't look like things are working out here. Nothing personal, but I'm starting to remember how annoying you can be. Take my advice and go to DebateBothSides. I kind of don't want you here.

Well, I assume that means you don't want to consider reason, science and logic. There hasn't been anything like that from you so far. It's strange, but try as I might, I just don't see you as malicious.

Thanks for that. I am not malicious. But to also say there is no reason, science, nor logic here is trollish behaviour.

Hey, I'm trying to be nice to you, offer my advice of where you can take your blogging. I don't fear debunking of chemtrails. But I've already been through that. AAANI is not about confrontation or reinventing wheels.

You could go to the Democratic Underground and post in the Sept. 11th forum. You could go to DebateBothSides and post in their "science" section.

Heck, go to the Randi Rhodes Message Board and post in their "conspiracy theory" section.

But don't expect to come here and create some kind of mega-debate between a 'believer' and 'debunker'. Sure, we are both kind of big names over the last few years in regards to chemtrails. However, please respect that your presence here is not the direction I wish this forum to go.

I asked you in private to not go overboard and see if we could develop some trust. I offered that perhaps you could post on some other things like politics or whatever. In the old days, I would have instantly zapped your account. Nowadays, I am not so quick to do that.

My interests are elsewhere. Maybe at DBS, I'll take you on a bit. But I don't want to do that here.

Well, I think I'll try and go along with what you want here.

But not having seen all there is to be seen, I'm not sure what might catch my eye...

We had a moment or three with Uncinus/Epoxynous, and the Salter Spray, and where planes actually fly, and it's only been three days.

I'll delve into more unfamiliar areas for a bit and see what unfolds. And I'll have a look at DBS.

Yeehaw, yet another "crazy believer" has shown up. I activated icosaface. We'll see if he even attempts to make a post, so I can confront him. If not, I will delete the account in a few weeks. I don't mind a bit of "conspiracy theory" per se. The JFK assassination is considered a ct topic, and I have never dismissed that one. At DKos, a longtime poster TocqueDeville just got banned by the fake progressive Markos Moulitsas due to his insidious zero tolerance policy. I actually think Markos used TocqueDeville's final diary as an excuse to get rid of him. His previous one title Buying Brand Obama probably pissed him off worse. The major "progressive" forums have a disdain for independent thought. I feel no such abhorrent feelings. My problem has been with the over the top "nutjobs" or closed-minded debunkers who have seemingly been working insidious agendas. Why would any of them want to post here? Hello SharkGirl with your depopulation and rightwing rapture shite? Hello Romvaesn with your crazy believer hoax stuff? Jazzroc and Yaak/Foolsbane? Did you really think I'd ever let you stay here?

The internet is rigged, no question. A quick google of icosaface brought me to the heart of his crapola, and specifically to the reason why he will not last here long.

http://forum.conspiracycentral.net/index.php?showtopic=13714

No, you are wrong, contrails do not have Jack's magic ice crystals that grow and grow and grow. Contrails dissipate very shortly after they are formed and never ever form clouds, they might become part of clouds that already exist but they do not expand and form clouds by themselves.
Have a look at the photos here, Honesty.org , clicking on the photos will start them rolling as well as show the clicked photo in the main window.

Jack's magic ice crystals? Honesty.org? Methinks we have some buggers up in Canada selling snake oil.

Here's another link. But I don't have all day to figure these guys out. I've better things to do than debunk crazy believers, whether they are sincerely crazy or are scam artists.

http://forum.conspiracycentral.net/index.php?showtopic=1007

This other guy also linked to honesty.org. Icosaface shows up later to vouch for him. One dude seems to make sense. I truly don't have the time to get wrapped up in rabbit holes, but here is what an apparently third normal guy wrote.

But TKRA half your pics are NOT frikkin chemtrails.

See I've stopped downloading your files - I kept giving it a chance but it's like the boy who cried wolf too often. I'm sure Vancouver is getting a good trailing... it's just not when you have you camera out.

Why not wait till you get a lattice type sky and film it? This occurs once a week with 4 planes in clear skies in the UK midlands... so much so that the little gang we had documenting them stopped and ended up just sending the odd email saying


"Yup.... the fuckers are back again"

And later in the thread:

TKRA misses my point that I have made again and again and I'll repeat once more and STFU on this issue as I seem to be the only one saying this but I know loads think it.

You end up doing MORE damage to the chemtrails issue by using crap pics that ppl laugh at and say "nimbo cumulus" or "contrail". Just as with the "no planes hit the WTC" - somethings we just have to ensure we avoid *until* the discussion opens a little more.

And there is no need to use chemtrails as an attractor for other items - if the other areas are interesting enough they will stand up alone.

<EDIT>

And at the last Canadian President thingy - TKRA's vid homed in on a mini propshaft Cessna[?] type plane when it was just some pilot out for a day trip not dropping barium oxide on our heads.

Hey, anyone who wants to donate to some Canadien grifters, here's the link:

http://www.honesty.org/

The donate button is towards the bottom. They will help you to avoid greed and Lucifer.

In the site disclaimer, I see this:

The honesty.org and how.org domains are reserved for genuine non-profit purposes and are not for sale.

So does that mean donations are tax-deductible? Yeah, right. Got some swampland for sale, too?

Here's their forum:

http://www.honesty.org/forum/

Hey, maybe I have become a reverse-honey pot, attracting the disinfo. It's not that I have delusions of grandeur. I think there are other disinfo cretins, more to do with the political astroturfing, who are on my back elsewhere on the net. But that sometimes people like this show up here not realising that I am the last person they want to drop their bull on. It's as if they didn't even take the time to read a bit at this forum and realise I am the last person who will fall for their stuff.

I was surprised to read those old posts. I've been trying to change my approach to the subject of late, it never occurred to me that carnicom was set up as a distraction. As far as chemtrails go, they do spray them in the lower stratosphere, I know this because I made a lot of trips by air from Edmonton to Fort McMurray, in 2008, and on several occasions there was a layer of chemtrail starting at approx 24,000 ft up to 36,000 ft stretching from Edmonton to Fort McMurray and beyond in both directions.

I was looking for info and google came up with your site and your position re Jazzroc so I thought I would check out what you have here. I usually work 7 days a week for 14 hours a day and I don't have much time for in depth research and I tend to snap at people who claim there is nothing different about the contrails of yesteryear and the chemtrails of today. My quip about jacks magic ice crystals was a put down to those who hold that contrails can cause ice crystals to form in all directions and many thousands of feet away from the contrail location. Just because I point someone to a site that has what I take to be chemtrail photos does not mean that I think that all the info on the site is valid. I haven't been to TKRA's site since I made the post that you quoted.

icosaface wrote:I was surprised to read those old posts. I've been trying to change my approach to the subject of late, it never occurred to me that carnicom was set up as a distraction. As far as chemtrails go, they do spray them in the lower stratosphere, I know this because I made a lot of trips by air from Edmonton to Fort McMurray, in 2008, and on several occasions there was a layer of chemtrail starting at approx 24,000 ft up to 36,000 ft stretching from Edmonton to Fort McMurray and beyond in both directions.

Thanks for the post. Sorry for the nasty welcome. For the most part, this place has gotten nothing but the most irrational of people signing up. When I started out writing about chemtrails, I made lots of mistakes and linked to bad sources. So I can see how there is really no other result for when we are newbies but to fall into that trap. I sincerely apologise for coming down on you so hard.

I don't trust Carnicom. I was banned from his place, after finding out how closely he is affiliated to the right wing, holocaust denying, disinformation website known as Rense.com. That followed after he had deleted my post confronting a well-known conspiracy theory spammer known as Kathaksung. Carnicom appears to be a denier of anthropogenic global warming. He is also placing emphasis on a disease known as Morgellon's, which cannot possibly be proven to be a result of chemtrails.

It's actually quite easy to ignore the crazy believers. It is the ones making sense on the surface who produce the most damage to our credibility, imho. One of those has been Will Thomas. He has been part of the believers who has astroturfed the idea that chemtrails are some sort of remedy for global warming, i.e. geoengineering. But the trails we are seeing are simply too low to have anything to do with that. The trails are being witnessed primarily in the middle to upper troposphere. I was surprised at first that you think the trails are being dispersed in the lower stratosphere, until I googled the word and now see that wikipedia among others are spreading disinformation.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stratosphere

The stratosphere is situated between about 10 km (6 miles) and 50 km (31 miles) altitude above the surface at moderate latitudes, while at the poles it starts at about 8 km (5 miles) altitude.

Now why would anyone want to lie about where the stratosphere and troposphere are situated?

The graph below shows how off the wikipedia entry is.



14 kilometers is approximately 45,000 feet. 17 kilometers is approximately 55,000 feet. In short, the trails you witnessed were in the troposphere, not the stratosphere. But for "chemmies" to argue that chemtrails are for geoengineering creates a perfect strawman. There is a link on this forum, somewhere, but I am too tired to track it down, in which Paul Crutzen and another dude argued that ozone in the troposphere is more effective at attenuating the harmful effects of uv-b radiation than that found in the stratosphere. For these very ideas, I believe that chemtrails are all about the holes in the ozone layer. So why is wikipedia putting out false information? Because of chemtrails? Because some of us have figured the thing out? The troposphere is where 99% of the weather takes place. There is no reason for the word stratosphere to even come into play. Then why does it?

I was looking for info and google came up with your site and your position re Jazzroc so I thought I would check out what you have here. I usually work 7 days a week for 14 hours a day and I don't have much time for in depth research and I tend to snap at people who claim there is nothing different about the contrails of yesteryear and the chemtrails of today. My quip about jacks magic ice crystals was a put down to those who hold that contrails can cause ice crystals to form in all directions and many thousands of feet away from the contrail location. Just because I point someone to a site that has what I take to be chemtrail photos does not mean that I think that all the info on the site is valid. I haven't been to TKRA's site since I made the post that you quoted.

I gave Jazzroc a chance. I had mistaken him for being this dude Trausti from a What Really Happened offshoot forum. But he was truly getting overbearing. And this lady named Uri had signed up here, and he had given her a hard time elsewhere. To go with his inability to debate fairly and not be mean-spirited, it was an easy call to let him go on his way.

I now see what you mean by the Jack's magic ice crystals. I've been through the wash cycle as a blogger, and right now due to what I believe have been the efforts of disinfo people, this forum has turned into a ghost town. In the day, it certainly had some good potential. Perhaps it could rise again from the ashes. I've a friend here, CrystalRose, I guess I can try to nudge her into posting more. There is also Lophofo, who I have also become friends with. I met both of them through the major chemtrail forums. Perhaps I can bug him also to post more. Isard is from Spain. He's a nice guy. I guess the one thing we all have in common is that we know chemtrails are the result of deliberate activity, but that we are not gonna fall for any of the disinfo shenanigans. I think it's actually the crazy believers who have damaged the cause much worse than any closed-minded debunkers have.

Thanks again. Apologies again. Take care.

Apology accepted and thanks for clarifying the position of the stratosphere. I'm off to work, catch you later.