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Hey Socrates

manufactured grassroots, disinfo, and insidious marketing

Hey Socrates

Unread postby Mob Barley » Thu Jul 10, 2008 2:38 am

Why not forget all the chemtrail crap, and get into some real politics?

Even in the (wholly unlikely) event chemtrails are real - why don't you actually "strike the root"? By striking the root, you deal with chemtrails anyway; and if chemtrails don't even exist (they surely don't) you will at least have done something useful.

Whereas, even if chemtrails are real (which they're surely not), what good does focusing on that single, small issue do? You could be arguing to prevent children starving to death? You could be arguing for "one love"? Helping "people get ready"? YOu could be telling people to "stand up for your rights"?

Coming in, coming in
coming in, coming in,
coming in, coming in,
coming in from the cold........

You nah rass with me mon, ya man claat.

War in the east (not chemtrails)
war in the west (not chemtrails)
War up North (not chemtrails)
War down south (not chemtrails)

Everywhere is W A R (not chemtrails)

------------

As it's been said already, let it be done........

Mob Barley
 

Unread postby Lophofo » Thu Jul 10, 2008 9:15 am

Saying chemtrails aren't real is like saying the Sun doesn't exist...

Everyone can see the effects of both the sun and chemtrails.

And many are feeling the effects of chemtrails. Just like staying out in the sun and being sunburned, many people are getting allergies and suffering respiratory ailments because of chemtrails.

We are beyond the point of discussing whether chemtrails exist or not...that's already been proven. Now, what they are for...is the current debate.
Lophofo
 

The Subject Here IS Chemtrails

Unread postby BlueSkyHope » Thu Jul 10, 2008 9:58 am

I agree completely. These trails exist. There is no doubt. All aircraft (meaning passenger jets, etc.) are not doing it -- the ones doing it are mission-tasked, from all appearances, to lay down white-looking spewings which "morph" into long strange "clouds" after often looking like lines with round circles zig-zagging or blobbing out along the length. These things are seen on cams coast to coast. Do check out the EPA's own "haze cams" periodically during the day, as well as national landmarks' cams.

The cams are there to record particulates and ozone, indicating air quality, but as one watches those long white "clouds" appearing in a given interval of time, it becomes obvious that there is a correlation between those and "bad air readings."

For example, I have watched giant X's (another bizarre phenomenon, yeah, it's contrails, right...ha) over the Old Faithful Geyser against a very blue sky (late morning there) and by afternoon, after those and the long straight lines have been laid and "morphed" into clouds, seen heavy precipitation and storms.

Air Now Government Site



Old Faithful Geyser Cam







Old Faithful 09272007 at 0906 am X Marks the SpotImage





Old Faithful 09272007 at 1136 am after some chemtrails laidImage
BlueSkyHope
 

Unread postby socrates2 » Thu Jul 10, 2008 1:19 pm

Thanks Mr. Barley for the post and the tune. People might notice this usename of mine in a few threads at this humble forum. A while back we tried this same format with some limited success. Hopefully, it will go better this time. I picked socrates2 for a few reasons. I wanted to keep my post count down. One is also unable to use an id that has already been established, thus the two after the name. Finally, it can be tough to build up a forum when there are so few people.

This is also an opportunity for people to test the waters. As long as the posts aren't spam or nasty, I won't delete them.

The reason why this forum will always be devoted to chemtrails is because of fate. I never went into chemtrails ever expecting that I would start a forum. That is just the way it has played out, since the major usernames such as Swampgas, Increase1776, Deborah/FootSoldier, Halva{Wayne Hall}, Sorethroat, "Aubuchont" et al failed to get the job done or worst case scenario have been fakes the whole time.

Why the emphasis on chemtrails? A good analogy is the idea of starting a restaurant in New York City. A long time ago I was told that starting a successful restaurant in NYC is next to impossible. It's the same with the blogosphere.

Let's take this a step further. Say someone is so dedicated to starting a restaurant in Manhattan that nothing is going to stop them. By luck, they find a good location. There are already about five established, well-respected eateries in that area. One is pizza, others are perhaps dealing with Chinese food or vegetarian.

The best chance for the new restaurant would be to create something different. If the person goes for a pizza joint, they are already up against the odds because of the other one.

There are a million political blogs. As BlueSkyHope has said above, the topic here is chemtrails. After my adventures at the Democratic Underground and then DebateBothSides, the decision was made to create a haven for sincere chemmies not into convoluted sources and ideas.

Although this is a chemtrails forum, there is actually a bunch of political stuff here. Plus, imho, Political Science has to be the most corrupt subject area of them all. I am a firm believer in the inter-disciplinary approach to understanding social reality.

Are you The_Last_Name_Left? He had a nearly exact opinion of this blog. We certainly were in full agreement as regards to Michael Rivero. But he came out and said that chemtrails were a kooky idea. Maybe I was too quick to let him go. I am still learning about the moderating business. I am human and make mistakes like everyone else.

There is a phrase I have seen used in internet debates called moving the goalposts. At first we were said to have clouditis or delusions. Then we were told that we are seeing more synthetic clouds because of increases in air traffic.

The BBC report on global dimming has established the indisputable fact that aircraft are generating fake cloud cover. At around the same time, one of the original chemmies, Deborah, ratcheted up her copy and pastes on the problems with commercial aircraft pollution. Subsequently, it became obvious that she has been a debunker in chemmie clothes.

I have read plenty of comments about chemmies like myself. It has been said that we are limited hangouts; That we don't care about the real pollution. I have even seen posts saying we are plants covering up that 9/11 was an inside job. While Mob Barley hasn't called me out for being a fake, he is suggesting that this emphasis on chemtrails is detracting from "real" issues such as war, poverty, etc..

I have covered those issues somewhat.

The bottom line is we can't figure out everything as indivduals. As the great philosopher George Costanza has said, "We are living in a society." We need folks to specialize in specific topics. Then somehow we the people can come together and share our findings and work towards consensus and solutions.

I've had a few concerns with BradBlog, but I think their focus on election integrity issues has been the right approach. Somebody had to do it.

There was a need for a realistic approach to the chemtrails. Chemtrail Central failed to such an extent, that the old moderator team left in a huff and promoted places such as Gastronamus Cafe and Megasprayer. I didn't want to reinvent the wheel, so I went to those places. I believed in Swampgas and Chem11. I never expected that they might be fakes.

But over time, their true colours have emerged. Chem11 is a debunker in the Arcadia Ego/Deborah mode. Swampgas is a promoter of tinfoil who has allowed the chemtrail posting activities at his forum to dwindle to next to nothing. He has gone back on his word and allowed Mark Steadham to delete the archives of the CTC Changes period without telling his side of the story. In short, the histories of the major chemtrail forums do not add up. Just look at Increase1776 being buddies with Starman1. What happened to all his posts and Swamp's too calling him out as a Maverick debunker boy? That doesn't add up. So much doesn't add up.

What's up with the "Aubuchont" Deep Sky story? Where are the photographs and videos? Where is the access to alleged interviews with an air traffic controller?

Who actually believes they can wipe out clouds with the power of their own mind? Why are 98% of the chemtrail posters at CTC posting utter nonsense?

My take is that this has been all about controlled opposition and the forming of enigmas.

There is so much real evidence that shows that chemtrails are not such a crazy notion. I decided back in 2006 to concentrate on the chemtrails, because there was a real lack of sensible postings on the topic.

By the way, saying that chemtrails are not real because surely they are not is an example of a tautological argument. It's a preaching to the choir or circular approach to avoiding the evidence that suggests chemtrails are more likely than not a deliberate undertaking.

I have no problem with newbies and fence-sitters. Even debunkers don't seem to be the impediment to exposure and accountability. The big problem to me is the quashing of our freedoms of association. I tried to work within the existing forums, first CTC, then Gastro and Megasprayer. Those places too turned out to be limited hangouts.

This forum has been established so sincere people can feel free to post on chemtrails without an Ellyn piping in about Sheldon Nidle and the Galactic Federation of something bizarre. This place is here so someone doesn't have to have a sincere post followed by Weatherman714 talking about his billion dollar weather formulas and his attempts to work with the Chinese and Russians. Someone shouldn't have to see a thread started by Aubuchont propping up Carol Rosin without any regard for her dubious advancement in the peace in space movement. {She is the one who put chemtrails and extra-terrestrial space weapons into the Kucinich bill draft.}

We need to be our own debunkers. Otherwise, the result becomes closed-minded debunkers using strawmen to portray chemtrails as a hoax. What was up with Will Thomas and the Terry Stewart hoax? Why are most of the prolific chemtrail writers tied in with the strawmen?

This place has been established, so newbies and fence-sitters can have access to at least one place which provides realistic analysis on chemtrails. If the reader is to decide, they need a a serious accumulation of links and articles which do not exhibit the stereotypical image of "conspiracy chatter" or tinfoil-tainment.

I do want people to enjoy the materials here. Some of it of course is disturbing. It's tough to be smiling when confronted with pictures of charred Iraqi babies, for example.

This place really isn't about me, some nobody from Massachusetts. I just happened to be at the right place at the right time, with the necessary free time to look into chemtrails deeply and sincerely. I may not have all the answers. But I am confident that there is so much good evidence in the top section and elsewhere, that the main goal has been established. Real people are witnessing the creation of fake cloud cover. It does appear to be deliberate activity. Now there is at least one forum which doesn't suffer the foolishness on the internet pertaining to chemtrails. Such foolishness appears to be as deliberately dispersed as the chemtrailing.

I kind of agree with Lophofo that we are beyond the classic debunker versus believer stage. I have no problem with sincere debunkers. I have seen many of them come around after taking a closer look into chemtrails while making sure to separate the wheat from the chaff.
socrates2
 

Unread postby The_Last_Name_Left » Thu Jul 10, 2008 5:10 pm

Are you The_Last_Name_Left?

Of course I am

:)

many are feeling the effects of chemtrails.


rubbish. The least critical mind will acknowledge that even if chemtrails were responsible, it would be next to impossible to prove they caused individual ailments.

To rely on such a claim as "evidence" only proves the paucity of the argument.
The_Last_Name_Left
 

Unread postby Lophofo » Thu Jul 10, 2008 5:26 pm

...kind of like it would be next to impossible to prove that people who were exposed to nuclear fallout or direct nuclear radiation and who were dying in their 40s was caused by this nuclear radiation exposure.

The government relies on results not being found out for 40-50 years. They'll deal with the consequences later.

I guess that's the advantage of operations like chemtrails or weather modification. There's always another "natural cause" that people can point the finger at.
Lophofo
 

Unread postby socrates2 » Thu Jul 10, 2008 6:53 pm

There are a million threads with predictable chemtrail versus contrail debate. This could be a case where it is best to agree to disagree.

The top section of this place gives a realistic portrayal. With all the available info, it is very difficult for one to argue that chemtrails are more likely than not contrails. I'm not sure how old you are, but I am 40ish. I don't remember specific aircraft creating massive cloud cover.


I'm actually interested in your take on what happened with the What Really Happened Forum. That place got shut down twice. The first time happened after May41970 started the thread here pointing out the "Ender" agent provocateur post. They shut the place down and scrubbed it.

I never really thought about Rivero or that forum too much until may41970 started the thread. Before I knew it, there were fake socrates showing up. There was incredible amounts of spam, copy and pastes from here.

I'm sorry I banned you. I didn't know you were logged in at the time. I didn't realise how ugly things would get with the neo-nazi cybersmear attacks, that goofy script.

You then returned to the WRH Forum and started the thread, from memory, I think It's not about the Jews or something Rivero. There was some strange fake lawyer who showed up. The fake Jewish lawyer wasn't even upset with the blatant bigotry towards Jewish people. He wanted to go after you for simply posting open source information. There was the Bank Index interview, other stuff you came up with, etc.. People are encouraged to check out that thread, although I admit the length of it is probably daunting.

But anyway, I do know what happened to you at Progressive Independent. Now how's this for strange political bedfellows? Tinoire of Progressive Independent and Mike Rivero advertise for each other. One is allegedly far right {Rivero} while the other is allegedly far left {Tinoire}. One of the sponsors for Tinoire has been Wayne Madsen, a "reporter" with dubious credentials and work. They are tied into a Jeff Wells. Then there is that whole Barnes network of wingnut media.

We hit a raw nerve with that thread. We were right there with the Willis Carto/Barnes Review right woos left angle. We also showed an empathy for the Palestinians. It's called being logical and sincere. We might not be right about everything. But we were right about Rivero and his forum. There was nothing unofficial about that place. It housed Rivero's archived letters. It was advertised prominently at WRH.

There is that thread where you showed up at Chemtrail Central. One thing I'd like to say. The "Louis Aubuchont" and "Robin Roberts" character were the same person. I don't have exact proof on that, but I do have proof of that guy having sock puppets. And if you check those out, he had a modus operandi of spreading divide and conquer emotionalism and defeatism.

The What Really Happened forum was total cointelpro, imho. We exposed it. So they developed that elaborate script. But I was able to save your one most telling thread, where the "**** hit the fan." It's on page eight of the WRH thread.

One last thought. I also screenshot other telling posts from that place. There was one of "Ender's" posts where he was advocating for the killing of Jewish people. Someone at DebateBothSides took the screenshot I had and altered it here and there taking out the reference to Jews. I called him on it. I confronted him on the fact that the only way he could have transposed Ender's post was by typing in manually whole big paragraphs. There was simply no other access to the posts, since that forum was systematically scrubbed and deleted. The person never gave a link or denied what I said. These trolls aren't that bright. They are easily defeated through logic and are prone to quickly going into bully mode.

Maybe the thread is available again in cache, but I doubt it. "They" do know it is here.

Listen, I am not mad at you for not believing in chemtrails. Back then months ago, I was under a lot of pressure from the other stuff. I have been on the internet since late 2005. the last few years I have been devoted to outing big name trolls.

There's plenty of politics in here. Maybe we just have different outlooks or things we like to discuss. But I don't think there's any reason for any animosity between us. Things happen in the heat of battle.

I just want to say, that despite any petty squabbles between us, the overall mission to expose the WRH forum succeeded. Screenshots were taken. Attempts were made to piece it all together. The icing on the cake has been perhaps the outing of Sean Hannity's buddy Hal Turner being an informant for the FBI. Rivero, Tinoire, and many others like Markos Zuniga have been outed as duplicitous &%@#s.

That thread here has close to 5000 views. {we lost three weeks of forum history/view counts, although much was salvaged through google cache.} We won. They lost. The truth won. I think somehow we are on the same team. We're not gonna agree on everything.

Sorry I was rude way back when. It was nothing personal. No one is ever ready for such a brutal cyber attack like we received. Thankfully, that dark side of internet history has been documented. Thanks for your help in that. And it's not about us two. It's about everyone who has fought against propagandists and disinfo creeps like Rivero. We do what we can. No one wants to just give up and let the dark side do whatever they want to warp the internet.
socrates2
 

Unread postby socrates2 » Thu Jul 10, 2008 7:27 pm

I just want to add that health trends do match up with the aerosol dispersals, but as Lophofo astutely points out, there is always the deniable plausibility. Extra barium? Must be from the factories. Extra aluminum? Must be from China.

Aluminum exposure has been tied in with alzheimer's. There also does seem to be heavy increases in respiratory illnesses. Multiple schlerosis clusters have been located, and barium has been shown to be a leading cause.

There just seems to be no point in any basic debate of contrails versus chemtrails, unless we start looking at specific data, documents, videos, etc..

There was a show on The Discovery Channel on chemtrails. Rosalind Peterson was informed that a plume would be tested. The show went on to do a bait and switch and made it a no go.

I think if chemtrails are contrails, that would have been proven by evidence rather than the evoking of authority. I want to see a video that captures footage of commercial airliners leaving trails that expand into massive sky cover. Yeah, chemtrails and contrails can look very similar. I want it to be proven that regular airliners are creating these massive trails. That shouldn't be so tough, should it?

If NASA, the Air Force and others are calling this a hoax, then why can't they take a few pennies out of their massive budgets and prove that chemtrails are contrails? It serves their interest to evoke authority rather than be sincere. Commercial airliners are not creating the white-outs.
socrates2
 

Unread postby The_Last_Name_Left » Fri Jul 11, 2008 6:20 am

Hey - no problem, Socrates.

I guess I owe something of an apology, for being so dismissive of chemtrails. I don't mean to be offensive, I just think the entire issue is a diversion.

And I think your time is much better spent on the case of that whole "right woos left" thing. But I apologise - it isn't down to me to tell you what you should do. Any criticism was meant positively - constructively. I think you gauged that anyway? I just think that the right-woos-left thing is very important to expose; it still seems to be passing by largely unnoticed - although I think that's changed quite a bit in the last 12 months. Increasingly I see stuff exposing aspects of Rivero and AJ, for example.

As for that WRH official-unofficial forum, well - who knows? At least it's gone! And I never knew about the lawyer you mentioned, though I did read it here awhile back. They never got in touch with me.......shame really, as I wouldn't have backed down as readily as that person who made the original bankindex and dandelion books connections. I think that bankindex thing stands as very good illustration of the sort of network promoting right wing stories whilst exploiting the fear they themselves create. Alex Jones and Rivero's owner - Ted Anderson - and his Midas Resources gold thing is another one. AJ peddles stories about dollar devaluing, and then gets ted anderson on to pretend to be an economics reporter, to hawk his gold coins. They NEVER mention GCN is owned by Ted Anderson, that Midas is owned by Ted Anderson - that GCN is sponsored by Midas, that Ted Anderson ADVERTISES on GCN. The duplicity is right in front of people - but scarcely anybody seems to notice. And who the hell IS ted anderson?

Thread of mine on all that here:
hraunfjord.org

And yeah - willis carto is a player, no doubt about it. Scumbag that he is.

And where are these people getting all the money from? That's why I was banned from Progressive Independent after 2 posts - for asking who owned it! I was banned from prisonplanet after about 5 posts.........lol

Anyway, don't know if you've seen this, but I did start putting together some of the stuff on Rivero. It's nowhere near as good as I want it to be, but it's start - have a look?

link

There's quite a bit there, but you have to follow the links around - there isn't a main menu yet, so finding all the pages takes a little work perhaps. Even though it is far from finished, I can't see how anyone can read it and not realise how closely and directly Rivero is connected with the fascist network. Not just far-right - but fascism and neo-nazism. Curt Maynard for example.

Somewhat ironically Rivero has again linked to the forum I've been a member at for 5 years! He never responds to anything I write about him though. lol

Have you seen the WRH wiki? I posted some stuff there, and it kept being deleted. I'd go back, and edit it again, and put it up again. Then they'd delete it again. The funny thing was, they kept deleting rivero quotes! That's odd, isn't it? Rivero, or one of his minions was censoring the page of rivero quotes. I can understand them deleting my additions about rivero being a fascist - but his own quotes? Why aren't they happy to have rivero quotes there? I also found a few stories he's deleted from his archive - one where he linked to neo-nazis protesting zundel's imprisonment......

Anyway........I'll shutup now, and I promise to leave the chemtrail discussion alone. :)
The_Last_Name_Left
 

Unread postby The_Last_Name_Left » Fri Jul 11, 2008 6:34 am

oh yeah - and this one too

the3arguidos.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=25&t=15073

2 points of most interest

1) Carto's AmericanFreePress organised trip to venezuela, promising to write "positive" stories about Chavez in return for Chavez bankrolling them!!

2) Evidence from Vanguard News Network forum (fascist) that Maynard "got" Rivero to link to (and hence publicise) a story the fascists thought was important - it had a heavy race slant. The implication of course is that Rivero is conscious mouthpiece for fascism.


- I got banned from that forum too. ;)

I get banned everywhere........
The_Last_Name_Left
 

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