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NASA's Big Bluff Called: They're Chemtrails Not Contrails

dialogue and research on chemical trails

Re: NASA's Big Bluff Called: They're Chemtrails Not Contrails

Unread postby Lophofo » Sat Sep 27, 2008 5:51 pm

Foolsbane wrote:Contrails can form at any altitude if the air is cold enough...

Airports in Alaska sometimes close because of all the persisting contrails at ground level when the temp is -37 or below...

Ever see car exhaust in winter? same principle.


I live in Utah. Of course I have seen car exhaust in Winter. However, I have never seen car exhaust condense into ice crystals. I have never seen car exhaust leave a vapor trail that persists for hours. It dissipates within 24 inches of the actual car exhaust pipe from the muffler.
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Re: NASA's Big Bluff Called: They're Chemtrails Not Contrails

Unread postby Foolsbane- » Sat Sep 27, 2008 5:58 pm

What exactly is the exhaust if not cumbusted petroleum product combined with an ice crsytal?

Moreover, is it ever -37 below or colder when you see the exhaust? ...if not then you would not expect it to persist.

What is this guy in 1970 refering to? :

http://tinyurl.com/47lcdg
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Re: NASA's Big Bluff Called: They're Chemtrails Not Contrails

Unread postby socrates » Sun Sep 28, 2008 1:49 am

I've had enough of this guy. There are proven elevated cases of barium as reported by medical journals. There are increases in asthma and other respiratory illness. And a guy collecting rainwater in a jug may sound unscientific, but it showed there were elevated levels.


These guys can't explain why the same looking planes, not commercial, which are low enough to get a good look at, defy the laws of the Appleman contrail chart. People can check out some of the upper readings for chemtrail days, especially when the forecast is for sunshine and low humidity and see that no persistent contrails are even capable of forming.


Debunkers are mean people spreading stereotypes of those questioning how the skies look. Every point they have raised has done nothing more than create enigmas for the weak-minded. I've had enough of this guy. If he directs anything to me again, it will be flushed. If he has anything more for Lophofo, I will leave that to him to decide. If Lophofo also thinks this guy should be permanently banned, it is as good as done. He's lied and trolled just too much on the aerosol report thread.
Nobody - I mean nobody - pulls the wool over the eyes of a Gambini
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Re: NASA's Big Bluff Called: They're Chemtrails Not Contrails

Unread postby socrates » Mon Oct 06, 2008 9:25 pm

It's all a big bluff. Minnis has never shown proof of commercial airliners creating chemtrail white-outs. People are witnessing specific aircraft, not the airliners doing this. There are so many people waking up to the chemtrail truth, that the operations have been forced to tone it down. Ask yourselves why this forum has been attacked so much. We nailed it.

Here is a similar debunker piece from a place called OzoneHole.com. I will stop it in places with my rebuttal. There's a reason why Jay Reynolds picks strawmen prey like Wayne Hall, Deborah/FootSoldier, Chem11, Swampgas, and Lou Aubuchont. This has been all about controlled opposition. Real people, ideas, and proof gets ignored. We have isolated who the culprits are and what they are after. No other chemtrail forum has solved everything. From the disinfo to the actual actors, we provided the historical record. View counts and whatnot mean nothing compared to that basic fact. We are and will always be the true legacy of what the major chemtrail forums should have been like.


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Air Traffic

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(NASA ARC Image)

At high altitudes, the emissions of aerosols and particulate matter influence the radiative nature of the atmosphere which result in increased cirrus clouds and more persistent contrails.



The chemtrails are being done lower than the 40,000 cruising feet level. Anywhere in the air space, people can see aircraft coming from all different angles systematically creating a fake overcast. The planes I see are white unmarked. They are very similar every time. Chemtrails have nothing to do with increased air traffic. They have to do with specific types of jets.


Contributing to Climate Change and Ozone Destruction

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1 round trip from NY to LA or Trans Atlantic round trip = 2,000 pounds of CO2
In a year air travel releases 600 million tons of carbon dioxide into the atmosphere


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By the year 2050, increased flights by jet airplanes will impact global climate through the greater number of contrails they will produce, according to a study completed in 1999 and published in The Journal of Geophysical Research Letters.


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A research team of American and German scientists, headed by Patrick Minnis of the NASA Langley Research Center in Hampton, Virginia, reports evidence that contrails cause a warming of the Earth’s atmosphere. Currently their impact is currently small as compared to other greenhouse effects. They predict, however, that it may grow by a factor of six over the next 50 years. The researchers emphasize that these are conservative estimates, which take into account only the thicker contrails that can be readily observed.




This is a propaganda piece. Commercial air traffic is awful too. But the bottom line is that this is the mixing of apples with oranges. Chemtrails are not contrails. Notice how they don't explain which aircraft are making trails. Notice how they never make a video of chemtrails identifying airliners while watching how the specific trails progress. It's all a big bluff. Anyone who has witnessed chemtrails can see it is some kind of military aircraft, that it is the same aircraft every time and never the commercial ones. This is a fact. Minnis and his ilk like Mark Steadham go overboard astroturfing that chemtrails are kooky. I'm surprised Minnis has never heard of Thermit from Chemtrail Central. He posted there 164 times!!!!! What a joke. What a controlled, friggen, scripted joke of controlled opposition.


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Contrails? Where is the proof? I don't see any commercial airliners proven to have made those trails. We don't know what happened or where. We only have the picture in time.


Thinner contrails and contrails that have developed into natural-looking cirrus clouds also affect climate, but their impact cannot yet be predicted. Other factors that would play a role include natural cloud cover, overlapping of contrails, and size of the ice particles that form in them. They call for further research into the full extent of current contrail coverage and the specific effect of contrails in forcing climate change.

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Several scientific studies have suggested that aviation may contribute to detrimental chemical changes in the atmosphere (particularly ozone content), as well as possible climate modification. The most widely accepted assessments are those conducted by United Nations (U.N.) scientific organizations. Ozone trends are monitored by the United Nations Environment Programme (UNEP) and the World Meteorological Organization (WMO).

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Air traffic and, therefore, contrails, are not evenly distributed around the globe. They are concentrated over parts of the United States and Europe, where local warming reaches up to 0.7 watts per square meter, or 35 times the global average. The ghostly white trails following airplanes and rockets through the sky, called contrails, are probably adding to global warming, according to scientists at NASA’s Langley Research Center, Hampton, Va. The contrails often turn into cirrus clouds, a thin, wispy type of cloud made of ice crystals. The most common form of high-level clouds are thin and often wispy cirrus clouds. Typically found at heights greater than 20,000 feet (6,000 meters), cirrus clouds are composed of ice crystals that originate from the freezing of super cooled water droplets. Cirrus generally occur in fair weather and point in the direction of air movement at their elevation. While some clouds tend to help cool the globe and negate the affects of global warming, thin cirrus clouds are heat trappers, holding in more heat than they reflect back into space.



We are the only chemtrail forum not afraid to face the propaganda machine as personified through made-up crazy believer and closed-minded debunker personas. The debunker in chemmie clothes was the big wrench thrown into the script. This is why they attacked me so much. I tied all the convolution together into a coherent explanation. Arcadia Ego, Chem11, Big Bunny, Deborah/SoreThroat, Thermit/Steadham, Yakk/Cydoniaquest, even BoomerChick, all these characters have exemplified chemtrails as an enigma. This forum has isolated exactly who are behind the operations. The others, a lot of those are saying chemtrails are a result of increased air traffic. That is because they are really debunker propagandists.



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Contrails are human-induced clouds that only form at very high altitudes (usually above 8 km) where the air is extremely cold (less than -40°C). If the air is very dry, they do not form behind the plane. If the air is somewhat moist, a contrail will form immediately behind the aircraft and make a bright white line that lasts for a short while. Persistent contrails form immediately behind the airplane in very moist air. Persistent contrails can exist long after the airplane that made them has left the area. They can last for a few minutes or longer than a day. However, because they form at high altitudes where the winds are usually very strong, they will move away from the area where they were born. Persistent contrails are those most likely to affect climate.


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Present commercial aircraft fly at altitudes of 8-13 km. The emissions from such air traffic can change the atmospheric composition: Directly: by emitting carbon dioxide (CO2), nitrogen oxides (NOx = NO + NO2), water vapor, hydrocarbons, soot, and sulfate particles. Indirectly: by a chemical reaction chain similar to smog-formation the greenhouse gas ozone (O3) can be formed. In this reaction chain nitrogen oxides act as a catalyst under the influence of sunlight. As a result of these chemical reactions also the concentration of methane (CH4), another greenhouse gas, decreases. These changes can have effects on climate: Ozone, CO2, and water vapor are greenhouse gases and their increase has a warming effect. Methane is also a greenhouse gas and its decrease has a cooling effect. Aerosols (sulfate particles, soot) could have a cooling effect. Contrails formed due to the emission of particles and water vapor can increase the cloud cover in the upper troposphere. This may result in a cooling or heating depending on the size and optical depth of the ice crystals of which the contrails consist. Presently it is believed that contrails lead to a net warming effect. There may be changes in (non-contrail) upper level clouds: Most contrails decay after minutes to hours, but some continue to exist and are then not distinguishable from natural cirrus clouds .


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Schematic of aerosol and contrail formation processes in an aircraft plume and wake as a function of plume age and temperature. Reactive sulfur gases, water vapor, chemi-ions, soot aerosols, and metal particles are emitted from the nozzle exit planes at high temperatures. H2SO4 increases as a result of gas-phase oxidation processes. Soot particles become chemically activated by adsorption and binary heterogeneous nucleation of SO3 and H2SO4 in the presence of H2O, leading to the formation of a partial liquid H2SO4/H2O coating. Upon further cooling, volatile liquid H2SO4/H2O droplets are formed by binary homogeneous nucleation, whereby the chemi-ions act as preferred nucleation centers. These aerosols grow in size by condensation and coagulation processes. Coagulation between volatile particles and soot enhances the coating and forms a mixed H2SO4/H2O-soot aerosol, which is eventually scavenged by background aerosol particles at longer times. If liquid H2O saturation is reached in the plume, a contrail forms. Ice particles are created in the contrail mainly by freezing of exhaust aerosols. Scavenging of exhaust particles and further deposition of H2O leads to an increase of the ice mass. The contrail persists in ice-supersaturated air and may develop into a cirrus cloud. Short-lived and persistent contrails return residual particles into the atmosphere upon evaporation. The scavenging timescales are highly variable and depend on the exhaust and background aerosol size distributions and abundances, as well as on wake mixing rates





YAWN!!!!!

None of that proves chemtrails and contrails are the same thing. Not even close. NASA and Minnis have shown they have an active agenda to expose chemtrails as a hoax. For all their time and effort, why haven't they been able to document commercial airliners produce the fake overcasts? Why not? Think about that!!!!!!!!



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Clouds play a complex role in the Earth's radiation budget. Low Clouds reflect much of the sunlight that falls on them, but have little Effect on the emitted energy. Thus, low clouds act to cool the Current climate. High clouds reflect less energy, but trap more of The energy emitted by the surface.

The Atmospheric Effects of Aviation Project

For the past 10 years NASA has held a conference on The Atmospheric Effects of Aviation Project (AEAP). Several hundred researchers from around the world attend annually. In 1997 Researchers from NASA Langley Research Center in Hampton, Virginia, presented evidence that contrails are contributing to global warming and causing local effects over areas with heavy air traffic. This was reported by Jim Scanlon a journalist in attendance at the conference. He also reports that Fred Singer held a session where he presented a session that argued that the steady increase in air traffic for the last 20 years was responsible for the nighttime warming detected over North America.


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The Atmospheric Effects of Aviation Project (AEAP) consists of two major efforts to assess the effect of aircraft on the atmosphere. The Atmospheric Effects of Stratospheric Aircraft (AESA), sponsored by the High-Speed Research (HSR) Program at Langley Research Center, is a study of the potential effects of the operation of a projected future fleet of high speed civil transport aircraft (HSCTs). The Subsonic Assessment program (SASS) is a study of the effects of the present subsonic aircraft fleet and of projected future subsonic fleets, and is sponsored by the Advanced Subsonics Technology Program (AST) at Langley Research Center. Objective Develop scientific basis for assessment of atmospheric impact of subsonic and supersonic aviation, particularly commercial aircraft cruise emissions.



For the past ten years NASA has been spreding propaganda about chemtrails, deliberately confusing them with contrails while seemingly working side by side with paid disinformation trolls to cover up the truth.

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The conspiracy theory is that government officials are conducting experiments in atmospheric science, and some of them involve a highly classified military project which involves protecting us from some as yet unknown threat. The side effects of people getting sick is part of the price we pay for defense is what the "conspiracy obsessed people" think.


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Yet they are the ones so obsessed with those who believe the chemtrails are deliberate activity. They doth protest too much, no?

Why can't they provide us with video of commercial airliners and chart their trails obliterating the skies over two to four hours? Why can't NASA put this "controversy" to rest? Why do they have to rely on organised disinfo to act the strawman? Think about these things.


People worldwide are reporting what they describe to be unusual activity in the sky, including jets leaving trails at low altitudes, spray lines creating X's, S's and parallel lines, lines that slowly spread to create a canopy of haze, and reports of unusual smells, tastes, and even illness related to the trails.

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This conspiracy theory has been sweeping the Internet and radio talk shows has set parts of the federal government on edge. The US Government has received thousands of phone calls, e-mails and letters in recent years from people demanding to know what's being sprayed and why.

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The Environmental Protection Agency, NASA, the Federal Aviation Administration and the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration published a fact sheet explaining the science of contrail formation.

http://www.epa.gov/otaq/regs/nonroad/av ... trails.pdf

A few months earlier, the Air Force had put out its own fact sheet, which tries to refute its opponents' arguments point by point. "If you try to pin these people down and refute things, it's, 'Well, you're just part of the conspiracy,' " says atmospheric scientist Patrick Minnis of NASA's Langley Research Center in Hampton, Va. "Logic is not exactly a real selling point for most of them."



They've got nothing but ad hominems for scripted convolution. Minnis made 164 posts at Chemtrail Central. Both he and Mark Steadham work for NASA. Now why didn't Steadham ever admit this once at Chemtrail Central? Huh? There are plenty of reasons why this is the #1 chemtrail forum for the truth. You know it.These people have been so busted.

Here is the evoking of authority 101:

U.S. Air Force Report

The "Chemtrail" Hoax

A hoax that has been around since 1996 accuses the Air Force of being involved in spraying the US population with mysterious substances and show various Air Force aircraft "releasing sprays" or generating unusual contrail patterns. Several authors cite an Air University research paper titled "Weather as a Force Multiplier: Owning the Weather in 2025" (http://www.au.af.mil/au/database/resear ... -025ag.htm) that suggests the Air Force is conducting weather modification experiments. The purpose of that paper was part of a thesis to outline a strategy for the use of a future weather modification system to achieve military objectives and it does not reflect current military policy, practice, or capability.

The Air Force's policy is to observe and forecast the weather. The Air Force is focused on observing and forecasting the weather so the information can be used to support military operations. The Air Force is not conducting any weather modification experiments or programs and has no plans to do so in the future.

The "Chemtrail" hoax has been investigated and refuted by many established and accredited universities, scientific organizations, and major media publications.



But they created the chemtrail hoax! They created the controlled script. Why all this effort and not one video proving commercial airliners are involved, that chemtrails are contrails? Where is the proof? There is none. Only ridicule for planted strawmen like Aubuchont.

Claims and Facts

Claim: Long-lasting contrails are something new and they have abnormal characteristics.

Fact: Contrails can remain visible for very long periods of time with the lifetime a function of the temperature, humidity, winds, and aircraft exhaust characteristics. Contrails can form many shapes as they are dispersed by horizontal and vertical wind shear. Sunlight refracted or reflected from contrails can produce vibrant and eye-catching colors and patterns. Observation and scientific analysis of contrails and their duration date back to at least 1953.


Claim: Grid patterns of contrails in the sky are evidence of a systematic spraying operation.

Fact: The National Airspace System of the United States is orientated in an east-west and north-south grid with aircraft flying at designated 2000 foot increments of elevation. Contrails formed by aircraft may appear to form a grid as the winds disperse the contrails. More contrails are seen in recent years due to the growth in the civil aviation market. The FAA is responsible for the NAS and Air Force aircraft operate under the same rules and procedures as civilian aircraft when using the NAS.

Claim: There are reported outbreaks of illness after the appearance of "Chemtrails"


Fact: There is no such thing as a "Chemtrail". Contrails are safe and are a natural phenomenon. They pose no health hazard of any kind. If there are massive outbreaks of illnesses, your local health department should be able to tell you if it is an abnormal event. Local health departments generally network together when they start seeing problems. If there is a problem, the CDC will get involved.


Claim: Samples taken have shown the presence of the "DOD patented" bacteria pseudomonas fluorescens.

Fact: The bacteria claimed to be DOD developed and patented is actually a common, naturally occurring bacteria. The U.S. Patent Office (www.uspto.gov) lists 181 patents involving pseudomonas fluorescens, none of which are held by DOD.



People should reread my second letter to Minnis. They should reflect on why the recent paid troll visit tried to astroturf us as being in agreement with the strawman, Will Thomas. Ask yourselves what part of this forum has ever been refuted.

It's pretty sad when the ptb's have to go all out to suppress a few people like us who approached chemtrails with an open mind and a determination to figure it out. The attacks have been proven. Aubuchont has been proven to be a fake. Steadham also. The whole scam has been exposed. And chemtrails have been proven as real.

The more we are suppressed, the more it crystallizes what the few of us have figured out. Good lurkers- it's now or never. We could really use the help. Thanks.
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Re: NASA's Big Bluff Called: They're Chemtrails Not Contrails

Unread postby socrates » Wed Oct 08, 2008 3:51 pm

We got chemtrailed today for the first time in a while. The soundings, however, which I will post in the aerosol reports section, do not support the physics of the Appleman Contrail chart.


I just sent a third letter to Dr. Patrick Minnis of NASA.


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Re: NASA's Big Bluff Called: They're Chemtrails Not Contrails

Unread postby socrates » Wed Oct 08, 2008 9:33 pm

One of the major psy-ops has been to portray the sensible chemmie as one who will eventually join the debunkers. One of them called theseeker spoke of how his transformation occured after reading Patrick Minnis as Dogbreath over at Carnicom's.


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Canex joined Chemtrail Central on Oct. 26th, 2000. He made his last post on March 13th, 2003. And he doesn't know who Mark Steadham of NASA and Chemtrail Central is? Too funny.



Let's take a look at some of his posts. They are revealing.


Here he argued that persistent contrails are dependent on a certain amount of relative humidity.

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But then he went on to argue that the soundings can be inconclusive. Why with all NASA's resources hasn't Minnis easily proven that commercial airliners make chemtrails? It's because he can't. They don't.




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{answering a question, referring to himself}

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He doesn't know who Mark Steadham is, yet he admitted to looking at his big trail report. Evidently Mark Steadham used the "wimpiest" looking chemtrails to be had. Why make such a report minimizing the activities?


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Then he threw in his rightwing politics agreeing with a poke at Hillary Clinton.

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So Steadham put out a lame study that looked like it confirmed there was some kind of air force training going on, and Minnis started to get meaner and more circular with his posting patterns.


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I've always thought Canex as Patrick Minnis was meant to be ambiguous. He sounded like him, but on the other hand, he'd make posts like this next one. Now why on earth would he say he found a website on NASA's domain? Think about that. Please. This is ridiculous. It is as if Minnis did not make it clear who he was. He posted anonymously and left no contact in his profile. Later on we will see him speak of himself in the third person. With all the crazy hoaxes and planted disinfo with chemtrails, Minnis should have made it clear in no uncertain terms in every post that he was indeed Patrick Minnis. Things aren't looking too good for this cat.

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He then admitted to having posted at Carnicom's. He also rips into humidity readings again. That appears to be his achilles heel, in addition to having zero proof that commercial airliners make chemtrails.

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I realise Julian Penrod was a disinfo jackass, but check out how Minnis in a Jay Reynolds-like manner referred to him as a female. Notice how he refers to himself in the third person. I bet Minnis now regrets ever posting at Chemtrail Central and Carnicom's. It places him right at the heart of the disinfo script.


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Minnis made 164 posts at Chemtrail Central and doesn't know who Mark Steadham is?


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Canex was in on this script, no? It sure sounded like it. This was the point in which he was becoming more and more sadistic with his comments about chemmies, just like any good brownshirt would do.

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Thus, the nasty, closed-minded debunker had fully formed.

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I can't seem to find the link in my bookmarks, but Canex/Minnis recommended the following debunker piece out of a tv station from Colorado Springs. That is a running gig with Minnis, to produce the cheesiest articles and interviews that he can. Is Minnis in on the chemtrails disinfo?


Minnis has been pimping a lot of propaganda. He has gone out of his way to post at rigged chemtrail forums for objectives that probably made sense at the time. But now that we have taken a closer look at the big bluff, this smells very fishy. Minnis is the Tony Snowjob of chemtrails, imho.That he has ignored answering to the realistic theories presented about chemtrails speaks volumes.

There are a couple emails in my box which appear to be from him. Maybe we are about to get some answers. Or will it be more of the same crap like this, which he publicized years ago.



kktv.com/weather/headlines/135982.html

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Contrail Controversy

You've probably seen contrails crisscrossing across the sky.

They can be explained simply enough, through science.

Jet engine exhaust emits water vapor. When the vapor hits the cold temperatures, it forms a condensation trail.

But some people believe dangerous chemicals are mixed in with that water vapor.

They say some contrails, or what they call "chemtrails,� don't look normal. The condensation trails sometimes stay visible for a long time, even spreading out to create thin clouds.

And some people believe the government is putting something in those contrails, dropping chemicals, even an antidote for biological warefare on an unsuspecting public.

It's a wide-spread idea. Log onto the Internet and type in the word "chemtrails" and you'll find a host of websites.

Marianne Miclat, a Public Affairs Specialist for the Air Force, says the idea of chemtrails is ludicrious.

She says because of how military planes are built, it's physically impossible to disseminate any kind of compound through the contrails. Even if an aircraft were modified, she says the high altitudes would keep any chemicals from making an impact by the time they reached the ground.

Dr. Jim Stevens, an Aerospace Engineer, says he also thinks the chemtrail idea is ludicrous.

He says the reason contrails are visible so often is simple. Air temperature and humidity determine how long contrails hang around or dissipate.

Many people also question discoloration around contrails. Dr. Stevens says that's no different than what you see after a rain shower.

The Air Force says contrails are in no way harmful to us. However, they do say contrails affect the cloudiness of the atmosphere, so they're currently studying what type of impact that's making on the atmospheric temperature and climate.

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Re: More Damaging Evidence On "Paul Menace"

Unread postby socrates » Sat Oct 11, 2008 4:34 pm

First off, I think the reason more people don't post at our forum is because they are scared. They can see how we have singled out specific institutions as being behind the massive chemtrail program. There may be lulls from time to time, but the chemtrails eventually return. Patrick Minnis has taken the anchor punch. He has sent me two emails in response. His ties to Steadham reek of you know what, deliberate convolution by way of the evoking of authority. I'll publish his emails in my next post, probably by tonight or at the latest tomorrow. I think people are either too busy to post, scared, or they use the internet mostly for emails, checking out news and sports. As Isard pointed out in a pm, not everyone is a web surfer. He said we have a good base here for the knowledge. That it is time to find a creative way to bridge the work done here with social reality. I agree with him and am proud of this place. All the answers are here. From proving there has been an internet script distorting chemtrails to covering the actual chemtrails while providing plausible theories. I think there is the psy-op with Don Smith for example to have people post here and then abruptly quit. I think people like BlueSkyHope and Helix might have just chickened out.


People need to wake up. I have provided plenty of dots. I found Steadham's claim to work for NASA. Why didn't he ever mention that at Chemtrail Central? Now I have got Pat to admit he was truly Canex. Now it appears he was posting at a debunkatorium named Godlike Productions. That place has already been exposed elsewhere on this forum. Their role is to provide paid ridicule. Duncan Kunz, who has a thread here in his name, is the self-proclaimed Debunker King at GLP.


http://www.godlikeproductions.com/forum1/message448201/pg2


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So Minnis does shoddy interviews, provides debunker fluff news articles, and displays zero physical evidence that commercial airliners are capable of generating the chemtrails. This guy was all over the internet at various chemtrail forums. He's supposed to be a leading member of NASA. Chemtrails is portrayed as a ridiculous hoax. Yet, Minnis found it important enough to troll at major chemtrail forums. I say troll, because he should have made it clear that it was indeed him posting at these forums. With all the hoaxes planted concerning chemtrails, Minnis needed to put his full title in his signature. Canex? Dogbreath?


Who is this Phil guy?

He is hardcore debunker material. He is apparently a full-time astroturfer. He runs a website named Bad Astronomy. I think he was in the running to take over the Randi or whatnot bend the spoon debunker place. These are the people who dominate every thread on chemtrails at places like Democratic Underground and Randi Rhodes. The Chemtrail Centrails are known as outright hogwash. The professional debunkers are more likely to be found at other places like the DU.


Phil Plait: On Chemtrails

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This one isn't exactly bad science, but it is a great skeptical page which debunks a lot of nonsense: The Way of the Dodo takes on chemtrails, the face on Mars, and even hollow Earth theories.



I went to that link which led me to:

http://www.seawana.com/conspiracy.php?consp=chemtrails

It's a fairly predictable chemtrail debunker page. What caught my eye were a poll's results. If these are at all accurate, then there are many more believers and open-minded folks than closed-minded debunkers. This is a direct slap in the face of Paul Menace's/Minnis' false claims that chemtrails are contrails. Why hasn't he been able to provide any video proof that commercial airliners are producing chemtrails?


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Re: Patrick Minnis Makes Bizarre Comments

Unread postby socrates » Sun Oct 12, 2008 10:16 pm

It's been tougher for me to expose the internet chemtrail fakes, because there hasn't been much feedback from others. But that is ok. The proof is in the pudding. All findings I have come up with transcend who I am as an individual. With this post, I declare proudly that the true historical chemtrail record has been documented and explained fully by this humble forum. We are the true legacy of the major chemtrail forums.

He sent me two emails.


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Here were my responses {3 emails}:


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http://mynetimages.com/44f34aaa.jpg
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Re: NASA's Big Bluff Called: They're Chemtrails Not Contrails

Unread postby Lophofo » Tue Oct 14, 2008 6:47 pm

I loved your responses to him, socrates! He is definitely a prima donna.
It's ok for him to use his real name and have avatar usernames at different boards, when it serves his purpose.

When he wants to evoke authority, he must state his Patrick Minnis from NASA, PhD title.
He avoids the questions. He uses big words and "talks smart" in a condescending manner.
He does this as to appear intelligent...and, therefore, everything he says must be true and correct.

I mean, socrates, so what if you have two masters degrees. This dude is Patrick Minnis, PhD, from NASA!!!
How can you top that? :roll: (sarcasm emphasized!)

He totally doesn't answer any of the questions from your second email. I see this from our recent troll attacks also.
It's all about trying to prove that contrails have always existed and that it's very difficult (due to so many variables) to determine
why contrails persist sometimes and other times they don't. And to measure these variables, you need specialized equipment
and thorough knowledge on how to interpret the data...just like Mr. Paul Menace has.

So, evidently, he's the expert and everyone should believe him.

But, back to the other questions. What about proof of HAARP and chemtrails' relation to HAARP?
The trolls wouldn't even touch that one.
Hey, and I found a paper that was a presentation on research into harmful uv-b rays. Yet again, no one wants to argue that point.

The furthest anyone wants to come to is to say that these are persistent caused by air traffic...and it's possible that they could help
speed up global warming.

So, to find out, we need more money for funding research...and laws passed behind our backs with no real regulating authorities over the monitoring of this
weather mitigation.

No one is willing to address the real questions. They just want to throw it back to the same argument of "chemtrails vs. contrails" when we're so past that.
And people not wanting to address HAARP and all its evil little tendrils wrapped in and attached to many different organizations furthers my resolve
to expose all the cover up behind it...like them scrubbing the sites I've linked to.

Why don't they want people to know this. It's got to be because it's way more than what they want to let on to anyone...same with chemtrails.
And I'm going to say this:

If our own government can't even tell us the simple truth about what's being done in the sky, what makes anyone believe that they are going to tell us
the truth about what happened on 9/11?

Instead of our children asking us, "Mommy, why is the sky blue?" they'll soon be asking, "Mommy, why is the sky white all the time? Is it from all those jets making those lines?"
Lophofo
 

Re: NASA's Big Bluff Called: They're Chemtrails Not Contrails

Unread postby socrates » Thu Oct 16, 2008 3:36 am

[quote="Lophofo"]I loved your responses to him, socrates! He is definitely a prima donna.
It's ok for him to use his real name and have avatar usernames at different boards, when it serves his purpose.



Thanks for the post and compliment. This forum has gotten kind of lonely of late. The whole history of this forum has had people signing up, making mostly good posts, then disappearing. It really gets me wondering. If you know anything of Cydoniaquest/Yaak {foolsbane/bryansails} or even Mark Steadham, you will have seen the the 180 degree turns from believer to debunker made by many.

The big catch to that has been the predictable debunker points which have been repeated verbatim. OffAMyChain at Carnicom's is the same exact person who showed up here as foolsbane and the other guy. They may think they got their points in, but it backfired. It really is a big bluff. You see how Minnis has changed where the field goal marker is. He moved the goal posts. When the science doesn't add up, he changes the rules. Or better put. It's just like you say about him shoving the PhD in our faces. This is emperor with no clothes material. Where is his video proving chemtrails are contrails. All we are missing is money to prove our side. NASA obviously went to a lot of trouble to make websites debunking chemtrails. Minnis himself was somewhat prolific at THREE rigged forums.

I don't trust anyone. I don't trust Peterson, Carnicom, Carole Pellatt, any of them.

How is "Louis Aubuchont" not the proverbial paid to post spook troll everyone knows exists? Anyone who has read the blogosphere at all knows what the frick I am talking about.

It's like with this kid today who knew intuitively that the sky had been butchered. Most of the adults seem to fall into one of two categories. They either realise it is fried and sigh and say there's nothing we can do about it. Or there is the second category of shallowness, let's call them the ugly americans. Fat, selfish, self-absorbed. They are the ones who brush it off. Thankfully, they are much less than the spineless ones who at least acknowledge there is probably something to what we are on about.

When he wants to evoke authority, he must state his Patrick Minnis from NASA, PhD title.
He avoids the questions. He uses big words and "talks smart" in a condescending manner.
He does this as to appear intelligent...and, therefore, everything he says must be true and correct.


I think it's huge that we can pin him down posting at the rigged, nutjob websites. That flies in the face of his evoking of authority. I admit this forum has a bit of goofiness to it. That's called people can be somewhat eccentric. But we start out anonymous as usernames. If we are persistent, those usernames become our known internet names. I am not socrates as in the historic name. It was just the name I took. But I am am some dude from Massachusetts who posted at Chemtrail Central, Gastronamus Cafe, Megasprayer, Carnicom's for a few.

He lost this war because he did not answer my most important, serious questions. He doesn't know what we know, like how we put two and two together with the Popular Science tinfoil piece. He doesn't realise that the way chemtrails have been rigged on the internet has been articulated. He fell into my trap. I am a bit burnt out from the internet, a bit jaded, but there is still a bit of fight in me. I think I kicked his ***. I'm just trying to chill out more. I had my hissy fits about the lack of support. But I am damn well gonna enjoy this letting the reader decide portion of the program.

Lophofo deserves his due. I feel as bad for him and for Isard and others who wanted a decent chemtrail forum to participate on. This is why the NatureisMad abandonment hurts the worst. BlueSkyHope? Like I haven't taken the worst hits ever from Swampgas, Chem11, Fintan Dunne, Brad Friedman, Tinoire, Jeff Wells, Deborah, Halva, Lou, Don Smith, Con-trail, may41970, Helix, DesertRose, Mark steadham, Mike Rivero's unofficial forum neo-nazis.

Lou and CD'sNutz and others before have called me Jay Reynolds. Swampgas has called me Yaak/Cydoniaquest.

And now Dr. Patrick Minnis is directly tied to this historical convolution.




I mean, socrates, so what if you have two masters degrees. This dude is Patrick Minnis, PhD, from NASA!!!
How can you top that? :roll: (sarcasm emphasized!)


Uhm, I've got a ba in sociology. That means I am a lefty, no more, no less. Though I will stick up for the social sciences. I feel they are just as impotant if nopt more so than the physical sciences. There was a guy anyway at Harvard, I think his name is Howard Gardener or close, he spoke of the seven routes to knowledge or whatnot. The thing is there are many ways to learn. One topic we never see on the internet is how the schools have been corrupted with the standardized testing.

sorry, got off-topic. one of my masters is very cool. it was done in Ireland, Let's just say I got the point about the counter-enlightenment. There are limits to pure reason. Positivism is a lie. Peace and love the only true paths.

One of my masters isn't that impressive. I am only an academic in that I was fortunate to be able to go to college. In the real world, most people don't get that chance.



One big negative of America going fascist is that the historical context has been stolen by the astroturfers. The internet is at best a vent, some kind of free speech zone. But me and you, we het pushed into the one section ten miles away from the arena. The net neutrality thing. Like how poor people can't afford high speed. Dial-up is truly a *****.

He totally doesn't answer any of the questions from your second email. I see this from our recent troll attacks also.
It's all about trying to prove that contrails have always existed and that it's very difficult (due to so many variables) to determine
why contrails persist sometimes and other times they don't. And to measure these variables, you need specialized equipment
and thorough knowledge on how to interpret the data...just like Mr. Paul Menace has.



You want to talk Ron Paul? Are you against abortion? Maybe we should find a subject we disagree on and play it out a bit to see how disagreements usually go on in life. People may not agree on big issues- but at least if honest they apply some logic, some consistency. Paid trolls rarely exhibit such basic rules of dignified conversation.

uv-b rays- photosynthesis and/or taming sever weather, what else could chemtrails be for? It has to be for those reasons. Minnis doesn't understand that we have this whole website that exposed the mickey mouse script between crazy believer and closed-minded debunker. Perhaps he realises this now.

There is a circular way to their script. They dominate everywhere.

Yes, the cydoniaquest/yaak/foolsbane troll never responded to one shred of proof we have on our forum. Not one. Where's the faorness to that. We haven't been shy about posting their ideas. Why do all the believers have to be crazy to get real answers? Mind control and population culling are ridiculous explanations.

I sincerely believe that chemtrails on the internet has been rigged. I now believe that Minnis has been a part of it. Though he seemed to not know who we are. Otherwise, he probably could have come up with somethingt on the ozone layer and sever weather ideas. He came up with squat.



So, evidently, he's the expert and everyone should believe him.

But, back to the other questions. What about proof of HAARP and chemtrails' relation to HAARP?
The trolls wouldn't even touch that one.
Hey, and I found a paper that was a presentation on research into harmful uv-b rays. Yet again, no one wants to argue that point.


This is why we got attacked. The fakes don't want any freedom of association. I mean, there's proof that cointelpro/nsa or whatever eavesdrop on quakers and grandmoms for peace stuff. With the internet, does anyone think they are gonna allow us to form groups without trying to get theur dirty paws all over it?

I was late to the HAARP. Swampgas minimized it. He was a pretty normal guy in my mind. I was a newbie with a lot of energy. When you showed up at Gastro, that must have triggered the decision to break up the party.

Why didn't they copy and paste your magnadoodle/gun powder analogies, for example, and debate that? A big reason I believe HAARP is involved is because of the Eastlund patent. It's not like people took this idea out of left field. Then I too have seen the gravity wave clouds. Before coming around to believing that HAARP is used for the chemtrails, I did wonder how they were so effective in creating "perfect" fake cloud coverage. I was thinking maybe they had the best info with wind, humidity, etc., but HAARP definitely seems to be the missing link for me, in how they do it. They absolutely butchered the sky today. Two straight days after a long layoff.

You came up with tons of links and info on HAARP. That thread is packed with info. They didn't even try to debunk any of it. You raise an interesting point. I've thought for years now that paid trolls tend to ignore the good stuff.




The furthest anyone wants to come to is to say that these are persistent caused by air traffic...and it's possible that they could help
speed up global warming.


First we had clouditis. Then it became an issue of all air traffic. People are nuts if they think these aren't specific planes doing this. No one is saying or has ever said there aren't contrails or even persistent contrails. I think Minnis is a spook. That is my opinion now, based on seeing he was all over crazy websites, from listening to the Paul Menace interview, from looking at the kind of crap he links to- those cheesy articles, from thinking about the epic battles between Jay Reynolds and others, from looking closer at Thomas and Aubuchont, from finding out crap on Steadham. It's pretty wild how much was devoted to making this a controlled topic on the internet. I think we need a Ted Turner. We need someone to banroll us to prove that chemtrails aren't contrails. Or people should just think about how much money NASA has and how much time they have devoted to chemtrails and then ask why haven't they simply proven that airliners are making chemtrails.

So, to find out, we need more money for funding research...and laws passed behind our backs with no real regulating authorities over the monitoring of this weather mitigation.

No one is willing to address the real questions. They just want to throw it back to the same argument of "chemtrails vs. contrails" when we're so past that.
And people not wanting to address HAARP and all its evil little tendrils wrapped in and attached to many different organizations furthers my resolve to expose all the cover up behind it...like them scrubbing the sites I've linked to.



All they have left are the bully tactics, rigging search engines, making crazy posts on Alex Jones' forum making us two appear like the same person. Minnis is definitely the loser in this latest exchange. The proof is here on this thread that more likely than not Patrick Minnis is fully involved with the chemtrail programs. I'd say the same applies to Aubuchont and Steadham, and many other names and usernames.



We along with Isard are the only three to have this resolve? If I was a shy poster like Helix or even someone like NatureIsMad or BlueSkyHope who might be getting queasy about posting, I'd at least make one post a month, just to keep the hope alive.


Why don't they want people to know this. It's got to be because it's way more than what they want to let on to anyone...same with chemtrails.
And I'm going to say this:



I think the chemtrail program is huge, and that the reason they went to such extent spreading convolution was to prepare for at least a century or two of chemtrailing. I guess their best argument against me is that this is either too esoteric for most to handle or is too obscure, or that we and our 30-50 regulars or whomever reading here will dwindle to a few, and that this place will just fizzle out.

It's still the historical record. Unless we are deleted, all truths about chemtrails have been documented, from the disinfo to the actual trails. I think it was may41970's job to get me to give in to a feeling of dread and angst, that we will always be the few, that search engines will always be rigged, that there is no way to beat the proverbial them. I think he is a jackass spook internet writer.

If our own government can't even tell us the simple truth about what's being done in the sky, what makes anyone believe that they are going to tell us the truth about what happened on 9/11?


They try to pin this all on Bush/Cheney, but our whole stinking system is rotten to the core. Paid trolls have ruined the internet. They have turned the net into a wasteland of disinfo and enigmas.

Instead of our children asking us, "Mommy, why is the sky blue?" they'll soon be asking, "Mommy, why is the sky white all the time? Is it from all those jets making those lines?"



It's only about 4:30 am here. Thanks for helping set the record straight on chemtrails. We did the best we could. Maybe this place will survive. Hopefully, at least, the knowledge and ideas will live on.

Maybe I was naive to believe the cavalry would arrive. I better get some shut eye.
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