All Aircraft Are Not Involved

I agree with the policy of PI that we shouldn't name names if we can help it. This post is about somone, something completely different from that. We are in an information war. Does anyone really think that DailyKOS admitted his CIA and Reagan ties because it was a conscious, smart decision? I don't think so. It looks like two web amateur sleuths came across his stupid confessions.

Now let's take a real, good look at this UnDemocratic Underground and how it has served to alienate progressive, idealistic Americans. They do not even allow those of you yet to be "tombstoned" to mention this website. Now if that is not an act of forum war, then what is?

I believe that "Skinner" and the Democratic Underground needs to come completely under the microscope. One of the common bonds at this website is that many of us have been censored while others' profound messages have been lost in the noise.

We are being played.
And it doesn't matter whether this is for practical politics.
doesn't matter if this is to increase advertising.
it doesn't even matter if there has been a consciously rigged right woo left
moderating system at the DU.

The end result has become an undemocratic forum, which some argue is the epitomy of a "gatekeeper."

exhibit #1
Ten Days Later, Still No Response on Sweatshops from Democratic Underground

It’s now been ten days since I wrote a letter to Democratic Underground asking for Democratic Underground founder David Allen to explain the website’s simultaneous condemnation of sweatshop apparel by Republican political operatives and sale of questionably sourced apparel through CafePress.

I haven’t received a single word back. So now I’ve sent the letter on again, to multiple Democratic Underground addresses. They can’t say they haven’t seen the letter. I sincerely hope I receive a response soon...

There's tons of other goodies from this blogger on DU at that link.



exhibit #2

Who are they, indeed - DU ownership busted!?!?
by John

Wow, this trial suddenly got a lot more interesting, at least for the prosecutor.

I've always wondered why David Allen, aka Kelvin Mace, and his gang of thugs at DU get away with anything and everything. How could DU, supposedly a site for Democrats, allow them to do what they do?


DU's Registered Agent - donations to George Bush and Rudy, former FBI agent, lobbyist for National Association of Bankruptcy Trustees, represents industries/businesses against common folks, and more!


Now I've got your attention


Anyone who tells you a registered agent for a corporation is not important, is full of it. To prove this, just check into Thor Hearne of the now-defunct American Center for Voting Rights (ACVR) - which Brad Friedman has spent countless hours reporting about. The ACVR was a right wing phony voting rights outfit.

DU's registered agent is Potomac Programs, Inc., owned by the law firm Howe, Anderson & Steyer. Potomac Programs appears to be a mystery, but it's beyond dispute that the law firm owns it, and therefore, the law firm is for all practical purposes, the registered agent for DU.

Let's see what neat things we can find out about Howe, Anderson & Steyer


1. Hey, there's Richard Steyer "HOWE, ANDERSON & STEYER"donating to George Bush, Rudy Giuliania, and another Republican!

{me-Socrates. This cache not available right now, was last night. Hmmm.}

2. Whoa, James Anderson is a former FBI agent!

{me-Socrates- wonder if he ever heard of Cointelpro?}

3. Year, after year, after year, Howe, Anderson & Steyer lobby for the National Association of Bankruptcy Trustees! I'm sure that will bring a lot of comfort to people at DU having lots of financial problems.

{me- Underground my arse}


4. I strongly suggest not hiring these guys if you have suffered, and want to file a large claim against a company!

5. Do you believe, like I do, that the rich and powerful receive "way too large" severance packages? Looks like Howe, Anderson & Steyer don't feel like us.

6. Retired miners might want to watch their backs!

7. If you have a problem with a metal roofing company...

8. I really like this one - "Mr. Howe specializes in representing associations and corporations in employment and labor law matters. Mr. Howe has represented clients in collective bargaining, unfair labor practice cases, representation proceedings, discrimination suits, wrongful discharge cases, wage and hour investigations, and the negotiation of individual employment contracts. Mr. Howe has lectured and counseled clients in matters pertaining to sex discrimination, age discrimination, race discrimination, disability discrimination, workers' compensation, OSHA, ERISA, MSHC, the Fair Labor Standards Act, and the Equal Pay Act. He also has advised and assisted association and corporate clients in the formation and administration of captive insurance companies, group insurance plans, and Taft-Hartley trusts. He has represented clients in federal and state regulatory and legislative proceedings..."


I'm sure there's much more, but all this research has tired me out for the night. One thing is clear though - if everyone knew who DU's registered agent is, a lot of folks might wonder wtf?

I, on the other hand, will no longer wonder...

John

exhibit#3
This sounds just like DailyCiaKOS, don't it?

...David Allen, Ms. Harris' co-author and publisher, is deeply disappointed she has allowed critics to question her motives. A liberal Democrat, he thinks she and others exaggerate the danger of hackers stealing an election. "I think this whole debate has been cast too much in partisan terms," he says. "The incompetence of the voting machine companies is real enough. We would never guard our currency at the U.S. Mint the way we guard the currency of democracy--votes." ...

Sure, naming names of run of the mill trolls should be discouraged.
But this is no ordinary troll.
He runs one of the biggest forums on the internet.
Himself and KOS need to be held to the highest scrutiny.
Well, KOS is toast after that

We make these posts on behalf of the newbies and those on the fence,
for those who might stumble across us via internet searches.

I will await to see if this post is allowed to stand.
This Skinner guy has started this by censoring the message of the
progressives. He doesn't allow any of you to even mention this place.
My personal opinion now is that if certain internet personalities and
institutions wish to bully we the people, we should have the right
to push back.

__________________________________



Chemtrails are real;
Chemtrail forums are not.

allaircraftarenotinvolved.freeforums.org

These places seem to start out fine.
They need to establish credibility and membership.

But then all this other stuff crops up.
Imho, we are so hungry for the truth, so
hungry to have a place untainted, that
we forget the possibility that such places
have been rigged from the start.

I think we are very close to busting this thing wide open.
There's gotta be someone out there who is googling and
finding the missing info we need. Maybe they are doing
the whois and stuff like that. Maybe they are establishing
ties between "Skinner" and people/institutions that aren't
logical.

People like KOS and Anderson Cooper, they can try and act
like nothing has changed. But they have been outed as being
tied in with the spooks. I believe that we should try to
pinpoint exactly who and what this DU is.

I guess "Kelvin Mace" is allegedly one of Skinner's id's.
I actually threw this thread together very quickly.
Just wondering about "Skinner" after what we learned about KOS.

Am hopeful others can help us solve this question without
violating PI's rules.

If we can link DU to the "right wooing left" nonsense,
the game is over. We will have won. They will have lost.

It hurts, because on the surface it may appear that we
are attacking ourselves. Sure, we should be going after
The Barnes Review, World Nut Daily, and other bs.

But to me, it seems we have to make sure our own house is clean.
Saying I am at the beginning of looking into DU.
I am not into divide and conquer.
But I do believe that cointelpro is alive and well on the internet.
Whether such forces are manipulating boards and websites or whether
such cretins are actually behind the establishment of these places,
that is the big question, imho.

I mean, at best, DU is allowing the fake liberals to dominate
their message board. What if this is really about "at worst."
Who is really behind DU?
Why did Dave "Skinner" Allen come out with the same nonsense about
election fraud as DailyCiaKOS? Coincidence?

Hi Seventhson,

I'm John Dean, aka SluggoJD. The Trial of Kelvin Mace is my blog. Kelvin Mace is the name that David Allen, Bev Harris's former, fired publisher uses at DU.

The other David Allen is, of course, Skinner of DU. Everyone knows who Skinner is.

My blog has never claimed in any way that these two David Allens are the same person. The reason I decided to research DU was because "Kelvin Mace" gets away with anything and everything there.

As for my research into DU, the research is iron-clad...but does it mean anything? Some would say it means nothing...a registered agent for an LLC is just that - a registered agent.

I OTOH believe it does mean something - at the very least we've got a site that is supposedly for Democrats, registered as an LLC, with an agent that is into all sorts of right-wing activities and agendas.

If Skinner is truly a Democrat, at the very least, he should immediately terminate his relationship with "Potomac Programs," and apologize for having such a close relationship with a law firm that caters to the right-wing.

John

Seventhson wrote:Hey John

Anyone who takes a few minutes knows they're not the same David Allen. I don't think anyone here fell for that but maybe you should rewrite that report so people won't use you as a source for baloney.

Working with the right-wing isn't anything new for the DLC and Skinner's a DLC Democrat so I'm not too surprised. It could still be innocent but if I knew my lawyer catered to the right-wing, I'd go find a new one. I wouldn't use donation money to pay him either.

Working with the right-wing isn't anything new for the DLC and Skinner's a DLC Democrat so I'm not too surprised. It could still be innocent but if I knew my lawyer catered to the right-wing, I'd go find a new one. I wouldn't use donation money to pay him either.

Hi Tessa
I posted a new entry, to make sure people know that I know, there are two David Allens, etc.

I've seen a lot of folks mention that Skinner is DLC, used to work for Levin, stuff like that, but I have never seen any evidence to back any of this up!

Well, I don't know Tinoire, and am not qualified to have an opinion.

I am very careful to label facts as facts, maybes as maybes, etc.

IMO Wayne Madsen is not reliable - he proved it to me when he reported that he had proof that Bush underwent drug rehab in the San Diego area, but never released the proof. Sorry, but if you have proof of this, you get it out there, or else don't say you have proof.

John

Note: If you are to the right of the brown line, this website is not for you.

screenshot

I'm a bit sorry the bar at PI settled so far to the "radical" Left but I suppose that was inevitable given the kind of friends I have and invited to help build the place.

Every single Admin here wants everyone to the Left of the brown line to feel welcome because you ARE and it's going to take all of us together to make changes.

Please forge ahead with your ideas here. We need your voice badly because otherwise the board comews off as too far to the Left for a lot of people who are ready to start crossing the bridge.

And don't worry, some of my ideas wouldn't always be welcome here either- like my current, only-half-examined, idea that I'll take Ron Paul over any Democrat running with the exception of Kucinich and Gravel because an immediate roll-back of all their acts to destroy civil liberty and the constitution seem the most important to me right now.

Five minutes ago my phone rang.... it was Tinoire, founder of my Associate Site, The Progressive Independent....She said..."type in the following URL"..... which I did... and here is what I found... the interview I had with Michael Rivero on What Really Happened Radio...
So.... special thanks to my Comrade and friend David Baldinger for recording it, and to Tinoire for preparing the following.
Bless you guys! ...

The above originally sourced by iraqwar.mirror-world.ru/article/64158 and the information propagated by my Mike Rivero at whatreallyhappened.com - Gotta plug Mike since the moderates are so bent on discrediting his site!

Probably Behindthe Aegis stirring up trouble.
Post some bullshit about Chemtrails to try to discredit the site. Did you notice that when I didn't get fully on board with the really bizarre assumptions about Chemtrails that socrates tried to belittle my point of view and label me as having been influenced by astroturfers as in Reply #22 in his/her "Chemtrail thread". Plus, socrates established themselves by saying they had been banned by DU, socrates only had like 100 or so posts on DU. socrates is probably BTA. BehindtheAegis is "undercover" don't ya know?
I knew some people were going to try to come over here to disrupt with the influx of refugees from DU and elsewhere.

A PSU first?! KUDOS to a PI'er!
prosemiteundercover.phpbbnow.com/viewtopic.php?t=11287

Actually this thread is odd
whatever4:
I started to read this thread, then I noticed the original post is dated Mon Aug-27-07 02:48 AM, but replies are dated months before, in March. Had to mention it, it's strange, did this thread actually start in March, or was it moved and the timestamp got changed? ...


tinoire: It's much odder than that
I did some scrubbing yesterday. One of the ways I scrubbed changed the dates, mostly in the posts by "deactivated account". The OP got changed because I needed to remove the poster's moniker from the thread trail.

There's a pretty nasty game being played by people who go from forum to forum wreaking them to make sure all serious discussion gets discredited along with the rubbish they litter the forums with. We're just not going to play that game. When I have time, I'll fix that.

did some scrubbing yesterday. One of the ways I scrubbed changed the dates, mostly in the posts by "deactivated account". The OP got changed because I needed to remove the poster's moniker from the thread trail.

There's a pretty nasty game being played by people who go from forum to forum wreaking them to make sure all serious discussion gets discredited along with the rubbish they litter the forums with. We're just not going to play that game. When I have time, I'll fix that.

Frumpth of Julember: hey socrates, about Rivero
this is the whatreallyhappened guy from Hawaii, correct?

I used to visit that site a time ago and thought it very out of the mainstream and informative. Can you tell me why you suspect him of complicity? I'm genuinely asking, not trying to protect or anything.

DemonFighterLives: Thanks for that
but I can't get the indymedia link to work.
I always liked WRH, but he seemed to go over the top about Israel. Israel has it's problems, but White Nazi's are worse.

Tinoire: Sorry Socrates
I'm sorry Socrates, I've deactivated your account. Too many of the
posts you made aren't in PI's interest and seem calculated to cause problems.

Good luck with your forum.

Tinoire


me: Talk about unfair.
so people can write jewboy like Virgil did.
Some guy figured out Democratic Underground, and it was just
gonna be exposed, but you'd rather protect racists like Mike Rivero and ur posters.

You are the one who is coming across as being a paid fake.
This is nuts.
Take a look at what really happened.
I can't believe you are helping to spread war.
I thought u were for for real.
Please check out what really has been written.

You're not sorry.
You are protecting rightwingers and driving off real peaceniks.

You are ruining ur website.
Nice job with the censorship. hypocrite.
You are so naive.
or paid to divide and conquer.

Virgil called someone jewboy.
Yeah, DU is just about to be exposed.
Maybe YOU need to be exposed.

Oh, yeah, you hide and delete and scrub just like everyone else.

Thanks for nothing Tinoire.
You by chance change ur mind, please write back.

I am friends with Desertrose now.
She doesn't post that much because the atmosphere at ur place sucks.
A bit late to ban fucks like chlamor now!
Great. Ban me for speaking the truth.

I expect to be let back in to explain myself.
Haven't looked yet, but am thinking you have censored, doctored
shit already. If so, that says it all about who you work for.
Maybe you are the same people who ruined the peace movement a few years
ago. It sure smells that way.

You have a lot of nerve Tinoire.
You are doing worse for peace than good.
You are hurting the Palestinians.
You ought to be ashamed.

Should have known you weren't for real.
That is why ur website is so slow.

But u want to throw out the ad hominem on me.
You are no different than Skinner.
You are a fake brick in the wall.

Thanks for nothing.
Hope ur having fun getting played by spooks you poser.

I will see what u have scrubbed or said.
Right now I am very upset with you.

You are what is referred to as a shallow person.
You buddies with KOS and Skinner?
This all a game to you?
Getting paid to make hippies look like jew haters????
Gonna just ignore me???????

me: It's real easy to make me look bad when i am not there to defend myself. It was Virgil, and he did use the phrase "jewboy." But it's impossible for non-members, even members to see all of someone's posts. I've been looking for it, but it's now like a needle in a haystack, especially with all the censoring u do on the sly. i.e., impossible to search for members posts, all of them, even if one is a member. Yeah, and then u imply that i am from the pro-semite place. I'm not.

So keep sticking up for Mike Rivero.
Keep propping up some silly bs between urself and the rightwing bullshit zionist place. Yeah, just ignore the harsh truths about DU and Rivero.


You should look into that post that seventhson tried to cover up on DU's backers.
DU has been exposed. But no, i am the story, i am some fake "zionist."

It was Virgil who posted "jewboy." I don't make up shit.
You are getting played.
That's why ur website is not getting much action.

me: So now I am a troll?
Virgil said jewboy.
I don't make shit up.


The next one will be my response to her next email.

"This is for the best." --Ok, please read

Hi Tinoire,

"You need to take a very deep breath and calm down. What's with these hysterical rants you sent me? Do you think rants that come across as totally unhinged help you make your point or convince people?"

sorry for the rants. I sense that you now realise I am not a paid fake or anything like that. I do not think you are one either.

"ALL you had to do was write one clear sentence saying, "What I put in the quote box wasn't referring to Virgil but to something Kailassa said onepost up" and we would have dealt with this much differently.

Your complicity watch page is down, so I don't know what you are talking about. It was pretty clear what I wrote, except for the "Dave Allen" is "Skinner" thing, but then again, how the heck is one to know there are two influential "Dave Allens" posting at DU? I admitted I had it wrong. But I also tried to show that this is a big breakthrough in figuring out DU. Now why seventhson tried to gloss over that, why he gone on to imply that I am an agent provocateur in another thread, that is something you might want to keep an eye on. But since I can't even see the two threads in question, there is no way for me to know what kind of scrubbing you are up to.


"That's ALL you had to say, like an intelligent adult. Instead of goingoff on some hysterical rants about how I'm destroying the peace movement,protecting right-wingers, insulting the forum and other stuff so outrageous I couldn't even read it."

You wrote some bad stuff about me and turned me into a hideous troll.
Now what I am supposed to think of urself that you can't see that Democratic Underground has been finally exposed, but you seem to rather want some dumbass parlor sport between idiot zionists and ur people following their insignificant blatherings. Now I am gonna be very curious to see if you are going to expose the DU or not.



"Look. Best of luck to you but with what your rants revealed, you're notgoing to be comfortable at PI and I'm not going to feel comfortable havingsomeone around who writes things as unbelievably unresearched and stupid as Skinner = Kelvin Mace, "


Yeah, how is that stupid of me?
I read about "Dave Allen" posting at DU,
how does that make me stupid to mix the two up?
Seventhson wasn't exactly diplomatic in clearing the situation up,
now was he on a different thread. Those are warning signs
of mind games going on.

Please look at that website I linked to.
This looks huge.
DU exposed as corporate shills.
If you don't go after this, what does it say about you
or the people posting in your complicity watch?


"uses terms like Skinner Clinton and secret agentKOS, attacks someone like Jeff Wells"

I thought we were all good with Jeff Wells.
It is Mike Rivero who is making you look bad.
Mike Rivero is your enemy.
Right wooing left cointelpro.

Skinner Clinton was clever.
DailyKos has been found out to be tied in with the cia and supporting
Ronald Reagan. Now I know you are smart enough to see that I have
some wisdom here. I may lack some tact, I am no steve biko, but my
aim is true and i speak truth.

"and then prefaces threads with a paranoid "Please don't delete this" knowing those threads infract our rules, are exactly what we don't want on our forum and where 2 out of 3points don't stand up to scrutiny. It's for the best that we part ways." Tinoire

Hey, you can be in denial and not knock off the DU when u can, or u can
look at that link again and see that there is something to it. People who are behind the Democratic Underground have been shown to have made contributions to GW Bush. You have people on your forum talking up Ron Paul. You seem to be way in over your head. But thanks for taking that troll off of my avatar.

It'd be nice if I could get the dog back and my website shown, but if you want to be on different sides, so be it. You threw out a lot of stuff at me on that thread, making it seem i am from prosemite. I never even heard of that place before ur place. When I was 20 in college once I was yelling my head off at a meir khahane bitch. I despise all fascists.

I've got two masters, one in social theory from Ireland.
I don't make shit up.

thanks for your time and consideration,
peace.


me: Re: Ur a BigTime Useful Idiot! or agent provocateur
You look like a fool for deleting whole threads and posts, especially when
they show disturbing background info on the Democratic Underground.
You look just like the other gatekeeper sites who scrub and clean.
If you are for real, someday you will realize ur idiocy and feel like shit.
FU!

Maybe u r cointelpro.
U have fucked with me bad.
Either erase that message, or I will push all my energy towards exposing you!

The clock is ticking.
If I don't see that message gone, the investigation will focus on you in a big way.


me: Re: This is for the best.
It's in your boards' best interest to take that message off of my posts.
Hypocrite.

Censoring just like the democratic underground.
cleaning, scrubbing and pruning.

Get rid of that message.

tinoire: Sure
First just let me know in what order you'd like me to list your
schizophrenic profiles

socrates / may41970 / Paulo Freire / Jeff Reynolds /
FUIwon'tDoWhatUTellMe

and in what order you'd like me to contact the various webmasters
who've busted your trolldom so we can compare notes before putting
out a joint report about the you running loose on the net trying to wreak
havoc and discredit sites.

banned from pi

i just made my first and last post at PI. It was in the general discussion forum. Going from memory here, but this is pretty much exactly what I wrote.

(Question) Where is the "Complicity Watch" forum?

Where is the Progressive Independent forum called "Complicity Watch?" It was available yesterday, but today I can't seem to find it.

That's it. Two sentences. Nothing rude or abrasive whatsoever. Twenty minutes later I logged on, and got the message...

'We are sorry, but your membership has been de-activated."

Behind the Aegis:

Reply #79: So I shouldn't tell anyone what happened to me

Kailassa

Member since Sep 06th 2005
322 posts
Sat Aug-25-07 11:26 PM
In response to Reply #75

because you say someone else on another forum called somebody jewboy?

I'm heartily sick of the type of Jews who claim they are the only people discriminated against and play the jew card at every opportunity to stifle debate, but at the same time vilifying everyone who stands up to them.

I've never used a term like "jewboy", and never would because I happen to be a polite person, but the Zionists in Prosemite Underground have called me disgusting things, both in their forum and on DU.
Read their forum. We're all classed as piglets and they have a dirty name for Tinnoire. And if that's not bad enough, you should see what they do to any fellow Jew who dares speak out against what Israel is doing on Gaza strip.

If you want a forum where you can tell people what they may and may not discuss, a forum that's afraid to politely tell the truth, perhaps you will not be very happy here.

We don't descend to their level, but we will not be intimidated out of speaking openly about what is happening.

link


TAKEN TO TASK!

#80: The Wall by Pink Floyd

socrates

Member since Aug 07th 2007
65 posts
Sat Aug-25-07 11:46 PM
In response to Reply #79

So I shouldn't tell anyone what happened to me


because you say someone else on another forum called somebody jewboy?

It was on this forum.

I'm heartily sick of the type of Jews who claim they are the only people discriminated against and play the jew card at every opportunity to stifle debate, but at the same time vilifying everyone who stands up to them.

"the type of Jews"
"play the jew card"

I had to copy and paste this just in case you try to delete this rubbish.
This is the type of crap that needs to be expunged.

I've never used a term like "jewboy", and never would because I happen to be a polite person, but the Zionists in Prosemite Underground have called me disgusting things, both in their forum and on DU.
Read their forum. We're all classed as piglets and they have a dirty name for Tinnoire. And if that's not bad enough, you should see what they do to any fellow Jew who dares speak out against what Israel is doing on Gaza strip.

No, but you just posted about "the type of Jews" who "play the Jew card."
hey, this thread was on what I went through at Democratic Underground.
Should I go on your pro-semite thread and spam about chemtrails?

If you want a forum where you can tell people what they may and may not discuss, a forum that's afraid to politely tell the truth, perhaps you will not be very happy here.

We don't descend to their level, but we will not be intimidated out of speaking openly about what is happening.

This anti-Jewish crap has to go.
This person is basically spamming this thread.
I already posted above that I do not like the Israeli govt. or what they are doing to the Palestinians. Still doesn't mean I won't call out the rightwing shills and their useful idiots who continue with their infiltration of the peace movement.

The reason more aren't posting at this site is because of the jew haters.

But yeah, should I write about chemtrails on your prosemite thread? hmmm?

link

Socrates is repaid for his defense of Jews on PI.

Reply #87: It's damn bizarre that there's no such post on this forum


Tinoire

Member since Aug 11th 2005
8722 posts
Sun Aug-26-07 08:22 AM
In response to Reply #80

It's damn bizarre that there's no such post on this forum.

It's damn bizarre you "quoted" it but couldn't even provide a link, a thread title, a poster's name or anything.

It's damn bizarre that a search of posts using the forum's search capability and a MySQL search of our entire database revealed no such string as "play the jew card", much less the other rubbish you invented. The only result was in your post right here.

What's damn ugly is that the only result of a google search for this went straight to that right-wing pro-occupation forum that's so intent on quelling any support for justice in the Middle East.

What a crock of shit. This is such a despicable low.

When you can't find it, plant it huh? Had I researched that phrase before deactivating your account, my explanatory note would not have been as polite.

If you were truthful when you said you "do not like the Israeli govt. or what they are doing to the Palestinians" this is even more disturbing and I hope you examine yourself closely because the most charitable explanation is that you're very confused.

link


It's damn bizarre that with all her "searching" capabilities, she couldn't find the post was "Original Post: Erich Fried - A Courageous and Upright Jew and Great Poet"

link

And was EASILY located by typing in "progressive independent jewboy" on Google.

It's damn bizarre that she had to use all her searching powers to find "play the jew card" and couldn't, except in socrates' post. She didn't even HAVE to search, it was in the post to which he responded by KAILASSA! (HINT: That is why he QUOTED in a TEXT BOX what was said.)

If your searching skills are so poor, claim it was "planted," huh? Perhaps socrates' didn't realize the poem was by a self-loathing Jew, the kind Tinoire likes, you know, the "good" Jews.

Naja: Probably Behindthe Aegis stirring up trouble.
Post some bullshit about Chemtrails to try to discredit the site. Did you notice that when I didn't get fully on board with the really bizarre assumptions about Chemtrails that socrates tried to belittle my point of view and label me as having been influenced by astroturfers as in Reply #22 in his/her "Chemtrail thread". ...

Naja: Chemtrails or not.
Something fucked up is happening, whether this is deliberate or merely a by-product of increased airline traffic, I don't know, but I lean toward the chemtrail/deliberate. Today August 18, 2007 at 11:00 am, crisp, blue sky, not a single cloud. All afternoon I watched successive jets chem/contrails make there way across the sky. By around 5:00pm sky is now completely cloud covered and it is obvious that these clouds formed as a direct result of the trails. Something is afoot. One theory that I have come up with is that it is done on purpose as a "patch" to the ozone, but this is mere specualtion.

posted by Me: Let's Cut To The Chase: Chemtrails or Contrails?

Something fucked up is happening, whether this is deliberate or merely a by-product of increased airline traffic, I don't know

You only think this because of what astroturfers have written on the internet.
Those are paid fakes in the "Dungeon."
Jay Reynolds is a fake.
The crazy believers are fakes.
Kos is fake.
Chemtrails as increased contrails is a lie.

I am older generation X. I don't remember ever seeing contrails expand and spread out like this. At the beginning of this mess, they said we had clouditis. Now there is crap left and right showing that there is a problem, a new one.

They are marketing pollution, plain and simple.
Newbies and those on the fence need to be warned about the fake script.
They need to be guided to the best sources.

Without doubt it is deliberate activity.
But they astroturfed that this is a belief system, a cult.
They want us to reinvent the whell every thread.

This is easy to figure out when the noise is filtered out.

One theory that I have come up with is that it is done on purpose as a "patch" to the ozone

That seems to make the most sense for the short term.
But I got a funny feeling.
They tried to pass those federal weather modification bills last year, but it was a no go. Talking with a med student the other day, she says asthma rates have spiked heavily the last years. There is going to be a point where the lawsuits are gonna start pouring in. They are trying to legalize it. But then again, they have tried to legalise torture and continue to butcher our constitution.

Not coming down on you hard.
Not saying to believe.
Just saying I think you know for sure
they are deliberate. We need to remember that
those DU creeps are not here to make us answer
their charges of being nutjobs.

Chemtrails are not kooky.
Those who say so are either paid astroturfers or useful idiots.

not gonna edit, just hit post.
Peace.

Hitlery will be the Dim nominee and her picture and her corporatism will be broadly hated.

Hi, at DU I was "Socratic Truths." In a way I have much in common with yourselves and what you went through. It shows that this goes far beyond the "dungeon." My experiences were only there for writing about chemtrails.

Miranda Priestly, thanks for looking out for me. It happened exactly as you said. I was bullied into watching my steps. The reason I wrote that thread was because there is a batch there who write as if they are paid to post. I have no problems with "debunkers." My problem is with crazy believers and closed-minded debunkers.

Who the heck wants to realize that there are deliberate activities going on above us?

I have started my own forum for chemtrails, anyone interested is more than welcomed. This is not spam either. I think this Progressive Independent is a great place, it really gives me hope to see so many honest folks keeping up the good fight. If there is a section here for chemtrails fine, if not, I'll try to make some posts, as I am a peacenik lefty anyway, life isn't all about chemtrails.

I just by chance had a lot of time the last few years to look into it. I got to know every "big name" on the major chemtrail boards. I am just a regular nobody who figured that someone had to do this, set the record straight. Hey, at least I wasn't playing video games, I was trying to present as much info from credible sources that I could on this controversy.

But if I may indulge, here is a recent post I made recently, this should show you that I am for real. Some things are outright hoaxes, I admit. But there is so much evidence for chemtrails, that it just doesn't make sense how many come out in packs to discredit the story as inane tinfoil without responding to the materials presented.

The problem with DU is that they have two sets of rules. Some people can be as "snarky" as they want, and they never get reprimanded or warned, nothing. Then there were folks like me, trying to play by the rules, but trying to also keep my chin up and just be allowed to present my ideas and sources without getting nothing but ridicule.

Thanks for your time and consideration. Peace to all.
... {just stuff already on this forum}

Thanks again for keeping an eye out for freedom of speech and association issues propping up at the censored DU. My story is proof that they censor, even in their "dungeon." Think about that. Geez, Paul Moyer of KNBC, Los Angeles did a story on chemtrails. This isn't that far-fetched. It's the nutjobs, paid or otherwise who are destroying the chemtrails awareness movement. Even if they are at to block out uv-b rays, why isn't this in the open? Why are they trying to pass huge federal weather modification bills on the sly? Sorry if this post was too long or in the wrong section. And if chemtrails are off limits here, I understand. You are good people here. I wish this place tremendous good fortune promoting peace, love, and understanding.

Tinoire wrote:That one had about 19 personalities who left behind a mind-boogling google chemtrail of evidence. I gave up after tracking down about 12 of them. Weird thing is I don't think he had anything to do with that PSU thing. I love the irony that they inadvertently helped us out and repaid us for having removed some personal information about one of them from our servers and for not having let someone else post the personal information of another person there.

Monikers however are fair game. If you want to see how bizarre this rabbit hole is, google the original name we mostly scrubbed + chemtrails and then start googling. We've been threatened with vindictive payback now that will be supported with the same shoddy, very non socratic, analytical disinfo skills that led to the declarative rubbish announcement that Skinner was Kelvin Mace, that Rigorous Intuition is disinfo (sheesh), and a bunch of other litter.

L. Coyote over at DU posted about the methodology used to hurt websites people don't like:

One way to defeat a web page's ability to attain high rank in a search engine is by filling it with gibberish words and links, especially so with porn keywords. Someone posted 5,000 links from gibberish words and spam keywords like "sex" and "pornosexo" etc. This type of assault appears intended to lower the rank of the CREW website by making it appear to be a porn portal.

One way to divert traffic from a high ranked web site is to create another site that uses all its keywords, then also create more links to the, in this scenario, "diversion" site than there are links to the one attacked. Understanding the search engine algorithms is how this is accomplished, usually by competing business interests.

seventhson: Reply #5: You are very wrong here
Kelvin Mace is NOT Skinner but is apparently a minker for ANOTHER David Allen who worked with Bev Harris.

That is NOT to say that the other info re: the reps/agents for DU are wrong (I haven't checked) but given the fact that the premise is completely wrong on Mace it throws the reliability of the entire theory and allegations into doubt.

A little google would have saved a lot of wrongness here.


socrates: Reply #8: Too funny!
So there are two "David Allens" at Democratic Underground?
The person at the blog linked to above was talking about David Allen and the Democratic Underground. And why do we need to google so much if you understand this thing about two different "David Allens?" It's like you are talking some insider lingo when it would be nice if you could just share your "information" that is so easy to locate.

If the blog linked to was all wrong, one would think it would have been taken down already.

And to say this discredits the general questions raised by this thread leaves me shaking my head. So spit it out. Tell us the real deal then.


intelle: There was another "David Allen" that frequented DU
He had been associated with Bev Harris. All this is true. Sometimes, one needs to listen to the "old timers".


socrates: Ok, but that raises another question.
That sure is a mighty coincidence that there are two such similar
"David Allens."

And even if this is true, there is no need to turn this
odd coincidence into the story itself. There is something
fundamentally wrong with the DU.

Wow, you had the time to respond here yet have no comment on the post below on the election fraud. Nice.



Iverson: a second approach
You are searching for a sort of truth in which hidden information needs to be unveiled.

We can also ask ourselves what an organization is all about by measuring its effects.

The short answer is that it functions in a couple of ways, foremost as a mainstream party rallying point but also meaningfully as a limiter of discourse.

Suppose you unearth all manner of clandestine funding and support by bad guys. Would it make a difference in your reaction?



socrates: Yes, Two Approaches
Enlightened people are not afraid of the word conspiracy. They realise it is a real word which defines some kind of planned subterfuge or whatnot between two or more people.

So, yes, we can investigate who supports and operates The Democratic Underground.
We can also investigate the results of what seemingly is social engineering.

To answer the last question, if we were to make profound links into the funding and/or other stuff, then that would blow the thing wide open.

Because plenty are astroturfing that we are just a bunch of nasty trolls who got justly banned.

Don't believe me?
google Mike Rivero, The Resister, and The Special Forces Underground.
you will never look at What Really Happened the same way ever again.



seventhson: : Some more info from another post" Who is DU?"
Link


This thread covers a lot of ground and basically concludes there is smoke but not much else.

David Allen was a media aide to Senator Carl Levin which should tell you quite a bit. I suspect if you google that it might help.

I for one am not convinced that DU is a didinfo site at all. But that is not to say I believe that it couldn't be.

I think its general mission is pretty clear: it is an arm of the democratic strategic movement without apology. And when the DLC gets its candidate in DU will shut down any opponents of that candidate. But it will also nurture dlc opposition within the party.

Re: Israel - it tends to lean to the right on Israel --- which is not a surprise.

I do not frankly expect too much sinisterness from DU. However by own banishment there was unfair and raises questions with me about their possible hidden agendas. Most of their agendas seem pretty well above board and out in the open.

The whole "agency" thing doesn't mean much at all. I think you'd need to see their donor lists to see who controls their content (and even that might be too obscured by front agents).



socrates: Oh, I see.....
Nothing To See Here Folks, Move Along!



seventhson: I'm not sayin'...There's nothing to investigate.

In fact I applaud your effort to pull back the veil.

The thing is that a quick google would have revealed that the David Allen posting as the other guy was NOT "Skinner" and so the blog you quoted looks kinda shakey at the outset.

Also, Wayne Madsen takes a close look at DU in the way you want to. He implies some seedy stuff, but concludes there is not much to see (altho I think he encourages further investigation).

I just do NOT want PI to look like the right wing hate sight "conspiracy underground" which is odious and disgusting (especially for what they did and said about my friend the late voting activist Andy Stephenson).

I think credibility requires a little rigorous diligence to get the facts straight and no a haphazard shotgun approach.

Fact is that DU has a number of agendas. One of them is to defeat republicans. I agree with THAT part of theior agenda as I suspect many here do. They also allow enough criticism of dems, the DLC and players in the dem party that SOME good can come from that.

Many may disagree with my assessment and feel that it is too far gone to be worth supporting in any way. But there are enough wonderful and critical posters there (who also post here) that I believe some good can come from it.

That is NOT to say that hidden insidious agendas may be operating there. I frankly don't trust practically anyone in this realm.

Research. Investigate. Show us what there is to see and know.

And don't be put off if some folks critique your efforts when you rely on someone who clearly has their facts all wrong and is spinning some kind of fantasy agenda (the blog "trial" which starts out wrongly identifying a DIFFERENT David Allen as Skinner).

I think following up Madsen's lead might be worth a look. But his credibility is pretty low in many circles so you need to check his facts too.

I encourage you to look for more and share it all.


socrates:Something Fishy Going on Right Here
So this guy can't spell things out clearly, just like on another thread where he made confusing statements about a certain DU poster. Myself and Desertrose didn't have a clue what he meant.

This is the deal people. There are cointelpro all over these forums. They are covering up the widescale election fraud from 2004 as proven by exit poll data. When in trouble they throw out some internet name like Wayne Madsen or Alex Jones. Then they are surprised when not everyone falls for their misdirection, obfuscating, and use of the "enigma."

Hmmm. invoking authority.
Hmmm. Creating enigmas.
Hmmm. Nothing to see here. move along

I encourage other posters at PI to help out.
I do believe that there is an info war going on right here, right now.
And I got better things to do than be running around in circles because someone is unable to just spit it out.

Now even if "Kelvin Mace" is not "Skinner" or a second "David Allen" makes no difference. I have run across certain posters at DU who reek of being right woos left astroturfers. And folks have to be pretty naive to not think they are going to try to stick their claws into this place. Anyone praising Ron Paul at all is probably one of them.

It's all about the exit polls.
And I am not gonna run in circles with a "debunker" here.

Something is up with the Democratic Underground, and it is the same shit going on with DailyCiaKos, WRH, and a mess of other "popular" websites.

link

Bill Bored: HCPBs! ATTENTION: KELVIN MACE AND GUV WURLD...

You two are the only ones on this sorry-ass board who have seriously considered the feasibility of HCPB for US elections. The rest of the HCPB crowd just blabber on about exit polls most of the time and frankly, I'm not really impressed by anything they have to say.

But you two, Kelvin and Guv, have actually taken this seriously and I appreciate that.

So, could the two of you put your heads together (without mentioning Bev Harris) and figure this out once and for all please?

Am I making myself clear yet? If not, let's forget about vote counting and just argue about exit polls and Wiki edits. But if we're serious about this election stuff, we need to reach a consensus about this sooner rather than later. I'm hoping you two can lead the way. What do you say?


althecat:
Gidday BB

When you wanna build a consensus best place to start is by making friends and accurately representing their position I guess.

Well done Bill.


Kelvin Mace:
Excellent points

I think we can say that elections have four criteria people care about:

1) Accuracy
2) Transparency (security)
3) Quick Results
4) Reasonable expense

Again, some folks around here have derided me for #3 and #4, but when ignoring #3 compromises #1 and #2, while trying to claim cost is not a factor, ignores reality.

Realistically, all elections involve some form of trade off. The trick is to build in enough safe guards that the trade offs don't invalidate the criteria in any meaningful fashion.

Democratic Underground is a gatekeeper website.
Downplaying the exit polls is the smoking gun.

dissidentvoice.org/Nov2004/Fitrakis1108.htm
None Dare Call it Voter Suppression and Fraud
by Bob Fitrakis

rollingstone.com/news/story/10432334/was_the_2004_election_stolen
Was the 2004 Election Stolen?
ROBERT F. KENNEDY JR.




Seriously, gave this guy a chance, but gonna look for some fresh blood here.
Don't like it when folks seem to have an agenda.

Don't like it when people make posts that make no sense, or
when they seem to be "evoking authority."

Please don't delete this Progressive Independent.
There's something up with your website, if you look close,
if you read between the lines. We're being cointelpro'd.



_____________________________________


Chemtrails are real;
Chemtrail forums are not.

allaircraftarenotinvolved.freeforums.org

DU's registered agent is Potomac Programs, Inc., owned by the law firm Howe, Anderson & Steyer. Potomac Programs appears to be a mystery, but it's beyond dispute that the law firm owns it, and therefore, the law firm is for all practical purposes, the registered agent for DU...

21 replies to this thread:
. , Deactivated Account, Sun Aug-26-07 08:36 PM
#1: I was there only two months after the begining, and it was much more, Lydia Leftcoast, Aug 24th 2007
#13: ., Deactivated Account, Aug 26th 2007
#2: "David Allen aka Kelvin Mace"--who is Kelvin Mace?, Madeleine_Court, Aug 25th 2007
#12: ., Deactivated Account, Aug 26th 2007
#3: You are very wrong here, Seventhson, Aug 25th 2007
#14: ., Deactivated Account, Aug 26th 2007
#7: There was another "David Allen" that frequented DU, intelle, Aug 25th 2007
#10: ., Deactivated Account, Aug 26th 2007
#4: a second approach, Iverson, Aug 25th 2007
#16: ., Deactivated Account, Aug 26th 2007
#5: Some more info from another post" Who is DU?", Seventhson, Aug 25th 2007
#9: there were three DU david allens, leftchick, Aug 26th 2007
#15: ., Deactivated Account, Aug 26th 2007
#6: I'm not sayin'..., Seventhson, Aug 25th 2007
#11: ., Deactivated Account, Aug 26th 2007
#8: Are you talking to or about ME???, Seventhson, Aug 26th 2007
#17: Of course there are two David Allens, SluggoJD, Aug 26th 2007
#18: proof that DU's agent donates to Republicans is back up, SluggoJD, Aug 26th 2007
#19: Hey John, Tessa, Aug 26th 2007
#20: Hi Tessa, SluggoJD, Aug 27th 2007
#21: Skinner did work with Levin, meganmonkey, Aug 27th 2007

14 replies to this thread:
Please Do Not Delete: What is the Democratic Underground All About? , socrates, Fri Aug-24-07 07:50 PM
#1: I was there only two months after the begining, and it was much more, Lydia Leftcoast, Aug 24th 2007
#4: You are a great source to have then, socrates, Aug 25th 2007
#2: "David Allen aka Kelvin Mace"--who is Kelvin Mace?, Madeleine_Court, Aug 25th 2007
#3: "Kelvin Mace", socrates, Aug 25th 2007
#5: You are very wrong here, Seventhson, Aug 25th 2007
#8: Too funny!, socrates, Aug 25th 2007
#13: There was another "David Allen" that frequented DU, intelle, Aug 25th 2007
#14: Ok, but that raises another question., socrates, Aug 25th 2007
#6: a second approach, Iverson, Aug 25th 2007
#10: Yes, Two Approaches, socrates, Aug 25th 2007
#7: Some more info from another post" Who is DU?", Seventhson, Aug 25th 2007
#9: Oh, I see....., socrates, Aug 25th 2007
#11: I'm not sayin'..., Seventhson, Aug 25th 2007
#12: Something Fishy Going on Right Here, socrates, Aug 25th 2007

Although I stopped posting here because one of your mods pissed me off with ridiculous unacceptable authoritarian type partisan censorship for a joke(I take free speech seriously) . I thought this was too good and it was missed by you guys....

posted by Virgil:
...Show me reality. Get as real as you can. Start a website and have the citizens gather to show their own big realities. Say socialism. Say depleted uranium. Say no more empire. Say getting the Jewboys out of American politics isn't antisemen- its pro-humanity and pro-American...

Hey Joe. I "corrected" your post by placing the link in 'code format.' I don't know whether you clicked the link after posting it here, but the nasty Jew-haters of PI made it so that any link to PI at this site will automatically go to a special page of their version of porn. It is vile and shows their level of hate for Israel. Go to one of our earlier AS pages and look for a live link to PI, it will not take you to what was quoted but to a page of death. It isn't pretty, but it is pretty disgusting.

On edit: here is a link to an early PSU post linking to PI:

prosemiteundercover.phpbbnow.com/viewtopic.php?t=330

On second edit: Good catch! I thought socrates was refering to the anti-Semitic poen written by a self-loathing Jew. Obviously, he was talking about that post you found. I remember reading that post, but must have glossed over it. But, it does drive the point even further that socrates was making.

I havent been here for a while and didnt know it should be in code now

The most telling thing is no one objected to his jewboys comment. What a bunch of scumbags.

Joe didn't place a link to TINSHIT'S pornography. All direct links to the PIgsty are re-directed to that link. That is why ALL links are placed in code.

It was a very important post because the head sow stated that she searched her entire board and that expression "Jew boy" never appeared on her forum proving once again what a liar she is. She even banned the poster who made that charge. Joe should receive kudos for his post not scorn.

Thanks Joe.