All Aircraft Are Not Involved

Posted: Thu Jul 05 by Me:

{on edit: Please don't take this as a slam May41970. I'm just trying to not walk on eggshells. I realise you are busy, that you don't have all that much time to post. Myself, personally, I will probably be cutting back also. I am thinking when I do post, I'm gonna try to focus more on providing info that might help us get to the bottom of the aerosol operations. Peace.}


I am now done completely ever even peeking at those shitsteads named WRH and the "unofficial" WRH forum. I have left a few anonymous posts, but never too long, and not more than a few times, just to let those racist psy-op pigs know that they weren't fooling anyone.

May41970, I don't understand why you spent that much time over there to begin with. You might want to water down your booze once in a while. One post here you're apologizing to Mr. Freeper Nutjob, Mike Rivero, then in another you're putting up info for some web address that has nothing to do with me.

That "unofficial" forum now has a really lame psy-op in place. It is meant to aggravate us personally. Someone as anonymous copied and pasted some of my stuff here and made it seem like we are a pack of anonymous trolls spreading havok there. They are trying to make it seem that we are making racist comments, etc..

So I can't wait to see your responses to all these new developments May41970. You started this thread. I thought I'd check it out, they say two heads are better than one. I am quite pleased to have figured out Rivero and his racket.

I will no longer even be reading at that stupid forum. They can continue with their games. Big Bunny and Chem11 from Megasprayer did the same exact kind of crap after I figured out their bullshit. They started messing with me. Big Bunny called me a republican sympathizer. Now the "unofficial" forum is trying to make more out of my idea of the reverse troll than I meant. I like to play with words. I came up with a new phrase, troll linguistics. Anyone who has seen any of my posts knows I am not racist and that I have tried to work within the chemtrail boards, but that there are no chemtrail boards that are honest.

So May41970, you might want to reread through this thread, take it easy with the drink, and make a good post. You see, I do not have any illusions of grandeur. I am not sure if this place will ever take off. One poster, BrassRat, is an obvious nutjob. Entropian Artifact, with his "little game" is another asshat. There are two members, Jester and Don Smith, who registered but just sit there in the membership list collecting dust.

I know chemtrails are real. I also realise that chemtrail forums are not the answer. You started this thread. This is your baby. I can forgive your one drunken post about allaircraftarenotinvolved.com, which has nothing to do with me, which was the address applied to here by fakes from the wrh "unofficial" forum. I can even forgive you for that silly open apology to Rivero.

But this is the deal. We are weeks later into this. It is time for you to get organised and put this thing back together. It is on you to fix this and make it whole again.

Fri Jul 06 by may41970
Post subject: hey socrates

You might want to water down your booze once in a while.

Thanks for the constructive criticism.

One post here you're apologizing to Mr. Freeper Nutjob, Mike Rivero, then in another you're putting up info for some web address that has nothing to do with me.

Well, I screwed up. I wanted to keep faith in Mike Rivero, even though all the evidence points at him being a phony. And about me putting up info for some web address that has nothing to do with you - I'm not sure what you're talking about.

That "unofficial" forum now has a really lame psy-op in place. It is meant to aggravate us personally.

Of course. You and I have been accused of shutting it down, making bomb threats, reporting the board to the ADL, having 10 "anons" working for us. Thuban tells us that he's a lifetime military big-shot, and promises to sic the DOD on us; Thuban tells us that he's now our "friend" for life, and he'll stalk us to the ends of the earth.

So what? All we ever did was prove that the WRH Board was a fraud. We bit at the WRH Unofficial Forum, and the fakes posting at that board bit back at us. What did you expect?

Someone as anonymous copied and pasted some of my stuff here and made it seem like we are a pack of anonymous trolls spreading havok there. They are trying to make it seem that we are making racist comments, etc..

I saw several cuts/pastes from this website over at WRH. They were taken from posts you've made - but all mixed up and taken out of context - so as to make us sound like loons. I didn't post them.

So I can't wait to see your responses to all these new developments May41970. You started this thread. I thought I'd check it out, they say two heads are better than one. I am quite pleased to have figured out Rivero and his racket.

I guess I'm pleased too. So the last "big-league" truther turns out to be another fake. And it was the last one I really trusted; had faith in. Hooray. So we've shown that Mike Rivero's probably just another fake. Why don't I feel like celebrating?

Now the "unofficial" forum is trying to make more out of my idea of the reverse troll than I meant. I like to play with words. I came up with a new phrase, troll linguistics. Anyone who has seen any of my posts knows I am not racist and that I have tried to work within the chemtrail boards, but that there are no chemtrail boards that are honest.

I know you're not a racist; that's obvious from your posts. And maybe there are other honest boards out there, but (like this one) they are also invisible to google search.

So May41970, you might want to reread through this thread, take it easy with the drink, and make a good post.

Go on, rub it in. I'm a worthless drunk and a fool. I never made a pretense to be anything more.

I can forgive your one drunken post about allaircraftarenotinvolved.com, which has nothing to do with me, which was the address applied to here by fakes from the wrh "unofficial" forum.

Which drunken post are you talking about? I really have no idea.

I can even forgive you for that silly open apology to Rivero.

You've kindly reminded me that I'm a drunk and pretty stupid at times. Yeah, I fucked up with trying to keep my faith in Rivero. And socrates, I'm tired of being pushed. I post when I want, or when Ihave something to say. And I don't really feel like saying much these days.

This is a good forum, soc, and I think you have accomplished a lot.

But this is the deal. We are weeks later into this. It is time for you to get organised and put this thing back together. It is on you to fix this and make it whole again.

I just don't like being pushed. I hope we can continue to get along. This thread is fanatastic, and I will reread it. But I need a break for a while.


Take it easy,

may41970



posted by Me: Fri Jul 06, 2007
Post subject: Re: MEA CULPA, MEA CULPA

may41970 wrote:

You might want to water down your booze once in a while.

Thanks for the constructive criticism.

I apologize. I should have just mentioned drinking once, if at all. I should have also given you the proper time to make a post, not make it seem like I was bullying you around.

One post here you're apologizing to Mr. Freeper Nutjob, Mike Rivero, then in another you're putting up info for some web address that has nothing to do with me.

Well, I screwed up. I wanted to keep faith in Mike Rivero, even though all the evidence points at him being a phony. And about me putting up info for some web address that has nothing to do with you - I'm not sure what you're talking about.

Yes, it was odd to me when you wrote the open apology to Rivero, but you had already clarified that, and it was probably behind us, so I didn't need to make note of it again.

What confused me was when you did that whois search on allaircraftarenotinvolved.com. I didn't understand how you could confuse that with this place. Yeah, it probably did look strange to you when it showed up. But, that was the name this forum was given by the nutjobs {paid or not} over at the "unofficial" wrh forum.

That "unofficial" forum now has a really lame psy-op in place. It is meant to aggravate us personally.

Of course. You and I have been accused of shutting it down, making bomb threats, reporting the board to the ADL, having 10 "anons" working for us. Thuban tells us that he's a lifetime military big-shot, and promises to sic the DOD on us; Thuban tells us that he's now our "friend" for life, and he'll stalk us to the ends of the earth.

So what? All we ever did was prove that the WRH Board was a fraud. We bit at the WRH Unofficial Forum, and the fakes posting at that board bit back at us. What did you expect?

I think what happens in these situations is that we become the symbols for anybody who wishes to post on public forums. So, comments are directed at us on the surface. But in reality, we both know at this point that fake posters are just full of hot air. Their real message is to all the lurkers/readers on the fence that if they don't want any trouble, they need to stay off of message boards and stick to watching television.

Remember when the attacks started at DebateBothSides, and I pm'ed you for some backup help? That shows that I can be a frail, worried, scared little citizen just like anyone else. I have come to rely on you to boost my ego a bit, toughen me up, with your fock fear slogan or just by your ability to post here and there with your trademark, objective manner.

Someone as anonymous copied and pasted some of my stuff here and made it seem like we are a pack of anonymous trolls spreading havok there. They are trying to make it seem that we are making racist comments, etc..

I saw several cuts/pastes from this website over at WRH. They were taken from posts you've made - but all mixed up and taken out of context - so as to make us sound like loons. I didn't post them.

Sorry to browbeat you into making a post. I'll try to never do that again. I thought I was being cool with the not walking on eggshells comment, but sometimes a bit of tact and grace can help.

Thanks for checking out what was going on. I could see what was developing, and I just wanted someone else's opinion of whether the bs over there concerning to us was as transparent as it seemed to me.

I made a couple posts there, basically the ones that ended up in the diversion bin about Rivero and the no plane at the pentagon thread. I just wrote that people should google barry, special forces underground, rivero, etc.. I just wrote basically a bit about what I have posted here, that not even to get into the debate about 9/11 and the Pentagon, Rivero's reaction to the topic hasn't added up. It is like when Jeff Wells tries to get people to stop thinking about controlled demolition.

By the way, it looks like you have eventually made a big difference. The "unofficial" forum now has a new moderator, and the guy seems fed up with that pack of bigots {paid or not} ruining that forum.

So I can't wait to see your responses to all these new developments May41970. You started this thread. I thought I'd check it out, they say two heads are better than one. I am quite pleased to have figured out Rivero and his racket.

I guess I'm pleased too. So the last "big-league" truther turns out to be another fake. And it was the last one I really trusted; had faith in. Hooray. So we've shown that Mike Rivero's probably just another fake. Why don't I feel like celebrating?

I think you are not pleased because whenever we fall for these charlatans, we end up looking and feeling dense for not having seen through it to begin with. I feel like a big time chump for never doing a basic search on Mike Rivero before you even started this thread. Rivero seems to have changed his tune over the years. Somehow his dubious background is not well-known. It looks like his new and improved WRH website has been an astroturfing setup successfully attracting progressives.

I went through the same thing with Arianna Huffington. I put a lot of faith in her and her website. Then she did things in which I could no longer trust her motives. She copied and pasted George Clooney quotes and presented it as his own personal blogpost contribution. But she wouldn't own up to that dishonest event. Then one of her employees, Andy Yacomink, started writing fake posts in an effort to increase webhits for advertising money. Sometimes fakes are in it to mess with our minds, promote war, etc.. Yacomink and Huffington were into fake posts in order to increase revenue. When Yacomink got exposed by Dr. Peter Rost, Huffington fired Rost and kept Yacomink. Not cool.

Now the "unofficial" forum is trying to make more out of my idea of the reverse troll than I meant. I like to play with words. I came up with a new phrase, troll linguistics. Anyone who has seen any of my posts knows I am not racist and that I have tried to work within the chemtrail boards, but that there are no chemtrail boards that are honest.

I know you're not a racist; that's obvious from your posts. And maybe there are other honest boards out there, but (like this one) they are also invisible to google search.

Thanks, this is what I was looking for from you when I made my previous post. What I don't understand is, is this the best "they" could come up with, to make it seem we were 10 anonymous posters and were using the "N" word, etc.? And it is also fairly obvious that someone, probably them, were copying and pasting from here, to establish some fake argument that we can use the "N" word, but they can't mention the word "Jew."

Is that the best psy-op our taxpayer money can buy?

By the way, I stopped posting at DBS so much because I was starting to lose control with cursing. I was using the "C" word, not against women at all. But after, I was thinking of censoring the posts. I never did, so it is out there somewhere that I used that word. I might not have used it against women, but I shouldn't have used it at all.

....Go on, rub it in. I'm a worthless drunk and a fool. I never made a pretense to be anything more.



...You've kindly reminded me that I'm a drunk and pretty stupid at times. Yeah, I fucked up with trying to keep my faith in Rivero. And socrates, I'm tired of being pushed. I post when I want, or when I have something to say. And I don't really feel like saying much these days.

This is a good forum, soc, and I think you have accomplished a lot.


....I just don't like being pushed. I hope we can continue to get along. This thread is fanatastic, and I will reread it. But I need a break for a while.


Take it easy,

may41970

Mea Culpa, Mea Culpa, to quote Aubuchont/Tracker from CTC.

I crossed the line, sorry. You're a good guy and deserve support. Next time I will stifle myself better, give you the proper time to respond, not try to push you into quicker posting. Keep your chin up. Maybe the astroturfers are all over these forums, so the bigger astroturfers like Rivero can strut around as the good cop to their bad cop.

Google stinks. When I added the url to their index, they said they may or may not add it. Yahoo seems to have had no trouble adding this url to their search engine. So if this place ever picks up, then we probably would start to show up more on the yahoo search engine. As for google, I don't trust them. They did say a decision would be made in usually 3 or 4 weeks, but I think you make a good point about how the search engines seem to be fixed, just like how Chemtrail Central seems to be fixed, just like a lot of crap that is out there on the internet.

If you're gonna reread through this thread, I'd recommend taking a look into the Southern Poverty Law Center article I linked to. Rivero wasn't just some Free Republic nutjob poster. He was circulating The Resister, a rightwing, redneck, racist, anti-communist rag put out by The Special Forces Underground.

It's not called a vast, rightwing conspiracy for nothing. It is kind of mad genius how "progressives" like us have been suckered in by fascists posing as "truthseekers." Maybe this explains why the low level hacks and shills are so easy to expose. Like say a Halva or Lou Aubuchont is exposed. Why would "they" care anyway? People like us just end up spending a lot of time figuring out the small potato nature of those two kooksters, when perhaps we could have been finding a good link exposing weather modification that ties in with the chemical trails.

Something I posted earlier really stands out. This is it.

...Funny you should ask that question. The guy in charge of that conspiracy site is Michael Rivero, btw.

A reader emailed me some material on Michael Rivero that had previously been posted on both Free Republic and Indymedia. One item in particular caught my eye, and that is Rivero’s relationship with something called the Special Forces Underground, an anti-Communist, anti-Jewish, white-supremacy group run by retired Green Beret Steven Barry. Rivero maintained copies of the group’s newsletter, The Resister, on his old, now defunct, website, The Rancho Runnamukka (see email dated April 6, 1998)

His response when confronted with this issue is interesting:

In point of fact I was never an editor for the Resister. I merely posted the newsletter as received. And, as onorous (sic) as the statement "created by white men for white men" may be to modern sensibilitirs (sic), that was in fact the philosophy of the foubnders (sic) of the nation, as evidenced by their treatment of the natives.

The following is courtesy of The Southern Poverty Law Center.

'A Defector In Place'
The creator of an underground magazine aimed at the Special Forces is out of the Army but building up his role on the extremist right
By Gregory A. Walker

Eleven days after the April 19, 1995, Oklahoma City bombing, Sergeant First Class Steven M. Barry, a.k.a. "J.F.A. Davidson," appeared on CBS' "60 Minutes."

Questioned by reporter Steve Kroft, the Special Forces soldier — his face obscured and voice altered electronically to hide his identity — identified himself as the editor of an underground newsletter called The Resister. Introducing Barry's "political warfare journal," Kroft told his listeners that it used "the same inflammatory rhetoric espoused by the radical militia movement and portrays the U.S. government as the enemy."

"The command says you don't exist," Kroft told Barry.

"That's excellent," replied Barry. "Great. Exactly."

"How do we know you're not the only ... people in this organization?"

"You don't," said Barry, who was accompanied by a similarly disguised associate editor of his publication. "We won't comment on numbers, names or affiliated individuals. That's a breach of security."

For many in the Army's elite Special Forces, this last comment was laughable. Barry had just violated a cardinal rule taught at the Special Warfare Center. Appearing on the nation's most widely watched news program, Barry had revealed what was supposed to be a closely held secret — the existence of his "underground" magazine and the organization that he said supported it, the Special Forces Underground (SFU).

But Barry has turned out to be no laughing matter. Today, he is out of the Army, and he openly distributes his racist and anti-Semitic periodical. He is drawing increasingly near to men like William Pierce, the author of The Turner Diaries and perhaps this country's most infamous neo-Nazi, even as he appears at more mainstream gatherings like those of the Council of Conservative Citizens, a racist group that has nonetheless attracted the support of numerous southern politicians.

More and more, Barry has grown into a key figure at the crossroads of right-wing extremism and the paramilitary underground — a man who also has received some of the best insurgency warfare training in the world, courtesy of the U.S. Army.

Leaks, Congress and Soldier of Fortune
The saga of Steven Barry raises many questions. How was a right-wing extremist, at the center of a small group of elite, active-duty soldiers, allowed to operate within the Army as long as Barry did? What damage did Barry's SFU do and how were its activities finally dealt with? Where outside the Army did Barry find support?

Here is the untold story of Steven Barry, drawn from this author's role in an Army investigation and from numerous other sources. It shows that confidential Army information has been published in The Resister, a periodical once read by Oklahoma City bomber Timothy McVeigh; that Barry received a career-ending reprimand as a result of his activities and, at one point, was a target of both federal and military criminal investigations; and that The Resister boasted of Special Forces members illegally defying orders in Haiti by helping to arm anti-democratic forces. It describes how U.S. military officials sidelined Congress and allowed Barry to remain in the military despite clear evidence of his extremism.

And it explains how The Resister, which today has a circulation of almost 2,500, was helped immeasurably by its intimate relationship with Soldier of Fortune, a magazine aimed at mercenaries and military men that enjoys a circulation of 100,000.

With the airing of the "60 Minutes" piece, the hunt for the SFU and the staff of The Resister was on. But the story of Barry and the military began long before.

Early Failures and 'Contract Work'
As a young man, Barry entered West Point in 1973 with high hopes of becoming a commissioned officer. Early on, classmates say, he attended a class on unconventional warfare and became entranced with military science, often to the exclusion of other coursework.

This may have cost him. In 1976, Barry was discharged as a result of poor grades — a failure he later tried to portray as the work of classroom instructors who disagreed with him politically.

Barry also suffered another stinging defeat. While attending the super-elite Ranger school as a West Point cadet, he was "peered out" — removed after his classmates suggested he did not have the qualities needed to become a Ranger officer.

In June 1976, Barry joined the Army in Cleveland as an enlisted man. There, by his own account, he went to Airborne School and the Special Warfare Training Group. The following year, he qualified for the Special Forces and trained in weapons, intelligence and sniping. In the early 1980s, he was an instructor at the Special Warfare Center.

Barry left the Army in 1985. According to an article earlier this year in Soldier of Fortune by its national affairs editor, James L. Pate — a man who has been close to Barry for years — Barry later took on "some contract work" in the Philippines.

That work, he told Pate, was for a group "concerned" by the democratization of that country after the ouster of dictator Ferdinand Marcos. Pate pointed out that Barry's 1988 stay coincided with a period of highly active police death squads that targeted communist rebels.

In 1989, after returning to the United States, Barry began editing Asia Hand, a right-wing weekly in California. The purpose, Barry told Pate, was "torquing out the Vietnamese communists in Orange County."

During Barry's editorship, several pro-communist newspapers within the émigré Vietnamese community were hit by unsolved arson attacks using ignition devices that police described as fairly sophisticated. Chuckling and at one point breaking into laughter, Barry denied involvement in the arsons.

"It was fun," Barry said of this period.

Barry as 'Defector in Place'
At the end of 1989, Barry reenlisted in the Special Forces, traveling, he told Pate, to Africa and the Caribbean on various assignments. He has said that he first conceived of The Resister on Aug. 23, 1992 — the day after an FBI sniper killed Vicki Weaver, the wife of white supremacist and former Green Beret Randy Weaver.

Work on a prototype newsletter began, he says, on Feb. 28, 1993 — the day of a bloody raid by federal agents in Waco.

Outraged at these actions and by the speech of his battalion commander lamenting the deaths of four agents in Waco, Barry writes that at this point he became a "defector in place."

Had he been in the Waco compound during the raid, he later said, "I would have counterattacked at the moment the [federal raid] stalled and killed them all."

For Barry — like Resister reader and Oklahoma bomber Timothy McVeigh — Waco would become a personal war cry. In the winter of 1993, Barry contacted Pate, who would thereafter provide numerous services to The Resister. Pate would come to see The Resister staff as both friends and as sources for his own journalism projects.

The relationship was close from the start. After journalists and others learned that a young man close to Barry had set up a Resister post office box in 1994 (immediately compromising the box because it was listed as commercial, meaning its ownership records were public), Pate opened another one on behalf of Barry.

That box was closed down when Pate's Soldier of Fortune bosses became concerned about appearing to be too closely tied to The Resister.

"The Maryland post office box was rented in my name, as a personal favor to TR staff, and as part of my obligation to protect sources," Pate later tried to explain. "My assistance was made with the understanding that it would be temporary."

But Pate's connection to Barry went much deeper. Sources close to Barry say that Pate actually helped lay out the The Resister's first issue and wrote for it under the pseudonym "Z.B. Vance" — an allegation that Pate has denied in the past. The "60 Minutes" interview was conducted in Pate's relative's Fayetteville, N.C., home.

Ultimately, after CBS producers learned of the extent of the relationship — that Pate was acting as a gatekeeper to a secret group that he had helped to create — his CBS consultancy came to an end, producers say.

Show producers complained that they'd been hoodwinked, thinking they were paying an objective reporter, rather than a silent Barry partner, to help produce their news segment....

This is only a third of the article. Go to this link to see the rest.
splcenter.org/intel/intelreport/article.jsp?pid=564

Are we done with this Rivero creep?

posted by Don Smith
Fri Jul 06, 2007 3:08 pm
Post subject: Dustbuster

..."just sit there collecting dust."
There is so much information to go through here, much of it needs to be examined thoroughly before I join the parade.
Pardon me, I am not as fast as some of the high powered intellects that demand action immediately.

I have been burned by eagerness too often to jump quick now, unless it is to dodge a bullet.



posted by Me:
Fri Jul 06, 2007 7:28 pm

Hi Don,

Thanks for posting. This forum was started about two months ago. This place was put together by myself and may41970, because neither of us believes in the major chemtrail forums. Yes, this is a chemtrail board for the most part, yet this section is wide open.

Everyone has the right to post whatever they want, as long as it isn't graphic or too tinfoilish.

This is the going theory, which everyone has the right to ignore or question. Chemtrails are real. Chemtrail forums are not. There are perhaps four basic components to the astroturfing.

*** crazy believers.
*** closed-minded debunkers
*** debunkers in chemmie clothes
*** forum gatekeepers



There are people who have been on these forums for years, yet now they insidiously argue that all aircraft are involved when it comes to chemtrails. I disagree, hence the name of this forum.

This has nothing to do with high powered intellect. This has to do with getting away from the tinfoil and noise, and at least have a small chance at developing reasonable strategies for exposure and accountability.


posted by Don Smith
Sat Jul 07, 2007

When I figure out what I have to say, I will post.
I am glad to have found this site.

Sat Jul 07, 2007 10:44 pm posted by Me:

socrates wrote:
"Ender" is probably Jay Reynolds. There is also a new poster I noticed named "A rope leash" who is "Ed Snell." Why do I think this? "A rope leash" has an avatar very similar to a poster at ez boards named "Hogsbreath."

The dogs may be different, but they are also similar in ways.

hogsbreath

Then scroll down quite a bit for the similar Yaak id at WRH:
A rope leash

I just went to this link, and Hogsbreath
no longer has a photo available, and his
recent posts have become hidden. They
are on "private" now. Maybe the dogs were
more similar than I imagined? Is A Rope Leash
really Ed Snell/ Yaak/ Cydoniaquest?

Mea Culpa, Mea culpa????? Razz


{on edit: Ed Snell/ Yaak/ Cydoniaquest put back up the avatar of the dog for the ez-board id, but his previous posts are still hidden. This is what fakes do. They check around for any sign that they have been busted, and then they respond with some more head games. Putting the photo back up is their way of saying, yes, you figured this out, but no one cares.}



Posted by Me: Wed Jul 11, 2007 8:44 pm
Post subject: What's Up with Mr. Moderator?

Has Ender been banned yet? Yeah, I admit I have gone back there a bit. It's clear that Ender should have already been tossed. That Reddot should be banned from making anonymous posts. They might want to start banning anonymous posters who are making strange posts. They sound in some ways kind of like me or May41970, but then ultimately they write awful things.

I just left this one post. Those asshats are being so illogical with "Moderator."
Any posts I make there from now on, I will crosspost on this thread. As I have said before, I have made only a handful of posts at that board. It feels like the cointelpro like fakes are trying to sound like they are us.

So it looks like 86Bush is off the hook. It is now up to "Moderator" to clean out the riff raff. Mike Rivero looks pretty bad. But here's the post I just left.

Censorship

the above post
Submitted by Anonymous on Wed, 07/11/2007 - 16:24

The above post was awful. I think the moderator should stop deleting and just start banning. People like Ender and the above anonymous are the problem. Yeah Democratic Underground, Kos and others are gatekeepers. What is going on here is completely different. Someone like Reddot should be banned completely. Same with Ender and any other wingnuts who keep posting the divisive crap. They are helping the zionists.

You should ban them Mr. Moderator. They seem to have made up that "n' word stuff. It's your place. Please do the right thing. They are playing transparent mind games with this board. It's just like you said. They are trying to drive off real people and not allow the masses to utilize this once great idea of a board. I bet if you go back to the racist comments, i bet "they" made them, the Enders and such. But good luck. It's fairly transparent what is going on.

I think if you start banning them, perhaps get rid of the anony's. That crowd is playing mind games with those, trying to sound like other anons, but it's not really them.

When you have an extreme nutjob faction like this, it reeks of cointelpro. They are making it seem that poor little Israel is faced with hostile enemies everywhere. They say evil jew this, evil "kike" that, they are actually helping the bad elements in the Israeli government.

Seriously, we all know what Ender and others keep writing. If you ban them, at least they have to come up with new stupid characters. At least people will know that you really do care about the Palestinians and world peace. Reflect on this please how they are the Palestinians worst enemy, making it seem that many want all Jews dead. These are sick characters who should be banned.

And here's the anonymous post that I thought was awful, just in case it gets moved. Hopefully "Moderator" cleans that place up. Hopefully he and Bush86 are for real. If so, they are both invited here. My advice to "Moderator" is to ban early and ban often, then put it all into the diversion bin. Make it so people can't use proxies. If they want to post, they need to have a regular location. It stinks because there is a beauty to this idea of the anonymous poster. But the enders, reddots, a rope leash, the thubans of the world have their paid agendas to pursue. Priority one for them seems to be to bring that board to a screeching halt.

But here's that other post. These people might as well be stepping on the Palestinians' toes.

the hired help...

Submitted by Anonymous on Wed, 07/11/2007 - 15:58.Show/Hide
Anonymous's picture

has time and again turned out to be the supporters of zionism.

i didnt partiularly like ender's choice of words either - and that's what all this is really about, isnt it?

and i'm sorry, but what you've said is simply not true. entire threads are now being disappeared.

MR seems to have some handle on how forums work - you are stuck between a rock and a hard place. is the evil government psy-opper the one who goes around yelling "kike!" or is he the one waving the israeli flag?

and does it matter? it seems that zionism's supporters have had a lot of success by forming both sides of the debate. either you support israel, or you are a racist nazi.

and to complicate matters, the truly skilled shill is the one who goes about telling 80% real truth, mixed with 20% disinfo, lies, etc.

and what of the non-paid plain-old wackos who insist that the vatican, aliens, or the position of numbers are the actual forces to fear. how do they 'contribute to the debate" - afterall they are following all the rules!

the one and only solution is for all cards to be left on the table, and for the readers to decide for themselves what is real and what is false.

the impression i am getting is that the mods/owners of this board are not that far off from democratic underground, dailykos, etc in that they display the kneejerk reaction that virulent verbal assault of israel and its supporters is the same as racism.

i further submit to you that "hatred of jews" is not racist as a jew BY DEFINITION is someone who believes in the torah and the talmud - both of which are documents of EXTREME racism and genocide. if someone calls themselves a jew because jews are a race - well, i'm sorry but only nazis and zionists believe that jews are a race and not a religion. how the hell do i convert to a race!?

president clinton's secretary of state went on national tv and was asked point blank about the death of HALF A MILLION IRAQI CHILDREN due to the sanctions. her reply was simple: "WE THINK THE PRICE IS WORTH IT."

THAT is racism, my friend. THAT is genocide. THAT is the powerful mix of racist hatred with power. And anyone who goes out and continues to support psycopathic murderers like that is guilty, guilty, guilty of the very same murder and genocide.

If "Moderator" reads this, I hope he takes it to heart. Like yourself May41970, it doesn't feel great exposing fakes. It feels slimy. You are right. Certain posters on the internet are nothing but astroturfing sleazeballs.



Posted by Me: Thu Jul 12, 2007
Post subject: ZIONISM IS A LOADED WORD

I believe that Israel has a fundamental right to exist. Zionism has become a loaded word distorted by the astroturfers. We need to find ways to add depth to our thinking. What has been going on at the "Unofficial" WRH forum is nothing less than divide and conquer politics.

So when I used the word zionists above, I should have clarified that I meant those fascist Israeli forces who are against the Palestinians' equal rights to self-determination. I should have clarified that my problem with these folks are their willingness to keep pushing around the Palestinians with their new settlements.

If someone believes that Israel is an illegal nation, then they have it all wrong. If we are going to reshape boundary lines, then Native Americans would retake the whole of America. Northern Ireland would become property of the Republic of Ireland. Kuwait would become part of Iraq again like it had been many centuries ago.

The racist astroturfers are simply agents of the status quo of war and inequality. They speak in stereotypes and wish to turn everything into an enigma.

Who knows what would have happened to middle east peace prospects if Rabin hadn't been assassinated. Obviously, he had become a threat to fascist forces within Israel. The same thing has happened in America. Positive social movements had been growing. More left leaning, progressive people were being registered to vote. There was a steady build up towards democracy flourishing here. That is why elections had to be rigged for Bush to be "elected."

Common sense says that all people are good and deserve the same equal rights. Israel deserves peace and security. But Israel is not some weak country. They have a strong military and are backed by the world's #1 military superpower.

So I guess I am apologizing for throwing the word "zionists" out like I did before. My vision is for a state of Israel and a state of Palestinian to live side by side in peace. The hacks and shills who have ruined the "unofficial" forum are not pro-Palestinian, pro-equal rights, or anything altruistic. They write as if they are pro-fascist Israeli interests astroturfing the idea that so many want Jewish people wiped off the planet. Mike Rivero has been at the forefront insinuating that 9/11 was a fascist Israeli plot. Anyone who has had even a bit of coffee can understand the insidious divide and conquer astroturfing that is taking place all over the internet.

Rivero is good cop to the bad cops like Ender. I found the following article from The Guardian, which pretty much could be an explanation for what this good cop/ bad cop bullshit is all about. It is meant to divide and conquer us. It is to get us into thinking generalizations. It is about leading us away from real solutions.

The US Military Industrial Complex and the conglomerations are the biggest instigators of violence in this world. For there to be real hope for this world, we need to take back America from these fascist warmongers. The astroturfers want us to feel worthless, that there is nothing we can do to make it a better world. We must not let them defeat our spirits. We must stand tall for peace, love, and understanding.


Anti-Zionism is anti-semitism

Behind much criticism of Israel is a thinly veiled hatred of Jews

Emanuele Ottolenghi
Saturday November 29, 2003
The Guardian

Is there a link between the way Israel's case is presented and anti-semitism? Israel's advocates protest that behind criticisms of Israel there sometimes lurks a more sinister agenda, dangerously bordering on anti-semitism. Critics vehemently disagree. In their view, public attacks on Israel are neither misplaced nor the source of anti-Jewish sentiment: Israel's behaviour is reprehensible and so are those Jews who defend it.

Jewish defenders of Israel are then depicted by their critics as seeking an excuse to justify Israel, projecting Jewish paranoia and displaying a "typical" Jewish trait of "sticking together", even in defending the morally indefensible. Israel's advocates deserve the hostility they get, the argument goes; it is they who should engage in soul-searching.

There is no doubt that recent anti-semitism is linked to the Palestinian-Israeli conflict. And it is equally without doubt that Israeli policies sometimes deserve criticism. There is nothing wrong, or even remotely anti-semitic, in disapproving of Israeli policies. Nevertheless, this debate - with its insistence that there is a distinction between anti-semitism and anti-Zionism - misses the crucial point of contention. Israel's advocates do not want to gag critics by brandishing the bogeyman of anti-semitism: rather, they are concerned about the form the criticism takes.

If Israel's critics are truly opposed to anti-semitism, they should not repeat traditional anti-semitic themes under the anti-Israel banner. When such themes - the Jewish conspiracy to rule the world, linking Jews with money and media, the hooked-nose stingy Jew, the blood libel, disparaging use of Jewish symbols, or traditional Christian anti-Jewish imagery - are used to describe Israel's actions, concern should be voiced. Labour MP Tam Dalyell decried the influence of "a Jewish cabal" on British foreign policy-making; an Italian cartoonist last year depicted the Israeli siege of the Church of the Nativity in Bethlehem as an attempt to kill Jesus "again". Is it necessary to evoke the Jewish conspiracy or depict Israelis as Christ-killers to denounce Israeli policies?

The fact that accusations of anti-semitism are dismissed as paranoia, even when anti-semitic imagery is at work, is a subterfuge. Israel deserves to be judged by the same standards adopted for others, not by the standards of utopia. Singling out Israel for an impossibly high standard not applied to any other country begs the question: why such different treatment?

Despite piqued disclaimers, some of Israel's critics use anti-semitic stereotypes. In fact, their disclaimers frequently offer a mask of respectability to otherwise socially unacceptable anti-semitism. Many equate Israel to Nazism, claiming that "yesterday's victims are today's perpetrators": last year, Louis de Bernières wrote in the Independent that "Israel has been adopting tactics which are reminiscent of the Nazis". This equation between victims and murderers denies the Holocaust. Worse still, it provides its retroactive justification: if Jews turned out to be so evil, perhaps they deserved what they got. Others speak of Zionist conspiracies to dominate the media, manipulate American foreign policy, rule the world and oppress the Arabs. By describing Israel as the root of all evil, they provide the linguistic mandate and the moral justification to destroy it. And by using anti-semitic instruments to achieve this goal, they give away their true anti-semitic face.

There is of course the open question of whether this applies to anti-Zionism. It is one thing to object to the consequences of Zionism, to suggest that the historical cost of its realisation was too high, or to claim that Jews are better off as a scattered, stateless minority. This is a serious argument, based on interests, moral claims, and an interpretation of history. But this is not anti-Zionism. To oppose Zionism in its essence and to refuse to accept its political offspring, Israel, as a legitimate entity, entails more. Zionism comprises a belief that Jews are a nation, and as such are entitled to self-determination as all other nations are.

It could be suggested that nationalism is a pernicious force. In which case one should oppose Palestinian nationalism as well. It could even be argued that though both claims are true and noble, it would have been better to pursue Jewish national rights elsewhere. But negating Zionism, by claiming that Zionism equals racism, goes further and denies the Jews the right to identify, understand and imagine themselves - and consequently behave as - a nation. Anti-Zionists deny Jews a right that they all too readily bestow on others, first of all Palestinians.

Were you outraged when Golda Meir claimed there were no Palestinians? You should be equally outraged at the insinuation that Jews are not a nation. Those who denounce Zionism sometimes explain Israel's policies as a product of its Jewish essence. In their view, not only should Israel act differently, it should cease being a Jewish state. Anti-Zionists are prepared to treat Jews equally and fight anti-semitic prejudice only if Jews give up their distinctiveness as a nation: Jews as a nation deserve no sympathy and no rights, Jews as individuals are worthy of both. Supporters of this view love Jews, but not when Jews assert their national rights. Jews condemning Israel and rejecting Zionism earn their praise. Denouncing Israel becomes a passport to full integration. Noam Chomsky and his imitators are the new heroes, their Jewish pride and identity expressed solely through their shame for Israel's existence. Zionist Jews earn no respect, sympathy or protection. It is their expression of Jewish identity through identification with Israel that is under attack.

The argument that it is Israel's behaviour, and Jewish support for it, that invite prejudice sounds hollow at best and sinister at worst. That argument means that sympathy for Jews is conditional on the political views they espouse. This is hardly an expression of tolerance. It singles Jews out. It is anti-semitism.

Zionism reversed Jewish historical passivity to persecution and asserted the Jewish right to self-determination and independent survival. This is why anti-Zionists see it as a perversion of Jewish humanism. Zionism entails the difficulty of dealing with sometimes impossible moral dilemmas, which traditional Jewish passivity in the wake of historical persecution had never faced. By negating Zionism, the anti-semite is arguing that the Jew must always be the victim, for victims do no wrong and deserve our sympathy and support.

Israel errs like all other nations: it is normal. What anti-Zionists find so obscene is that Israel is neither martyr nor saint. Their outrage refuses legitimacy to a people's national liberation movement. Israel's stubborn refusal to comply with the invitation to commit national suicide and thereby regain a supposedly lost moral ground draws condemnation. Jews now have the right to self-determination, and that is what the anti-semite dislikes so much.

MPs criticise Israel over treatment of Palestinians

Independent, The (London),
Mar 18, 2004
by Don Macintyre at Erez crossing

ISRAEL WAS strongly criticised yesterday by an all-party group of senior British parliamentarians visiting Gaza yesterday as its armed forces killed four Palestinians in two missile strikes during a new offensive against militants in the strip.

Two teenage boys, 15 and 14, died after a missile attack in Rafah, close to Gaza's border with Egypt, in another day of violence which began when an Israeli helicopter fired two missiles overnight into a group of Palestinians, killing a gunman and a 45-year-old bystander.

In a separate incident Hamas militants exchanged fire with Palestinian security forces in Gaza City after a car carrying armed men refused to stop for a police inspection. One Palestinian bystander was killed and 17 others were injured in the exchange.

Israel launched the offensive into Gaza late on Tuesday in response to a double suicide bombing earlier this week at the Israeli port of Ashdod that killed 10 Israelis. Israeli officials have also said they want to strike hard at militants ahead of a possible withdrawal from Gaza.

In a strongly worded attack on current Israeli policy, Baroness Williams, the Liberal Democrats' Leader in the Lords, John Bercow, the Tory Shadow International Development Secretary, and Joan Ruddock, the senior Labour backbencher, spoke of the "fear and anxiety" they had encountered among Palestinians on their 36-hour fact-finding trip, organised by the British and Irish charity Christian Aid.

Baroness Williams was careful not to repeat the suggestion which cost her Liberal Democrat colleague Jenny Tonge a front bench job, namely that she might have been a suicide bomber if she had been a Palestinian. But she said: "I wouldn't have used those words but I understand why she said what she said. I can see why young men with no job, no prospects, no way of providing for their family, are very easy meat for Hamas and others. I don't condone this. Nothing justifies blowing up innocent people but if we want to deal with the roots of terrorism we must be aware of the depth of unemployment and hopelessness in Gaza."

Mr Bercow told reporters: "The current stance of the Israeli government is unfair and will not produce peace. The current treatment of people in the West Bank and Gaza by the Israeli government is not justified. I can understand why young men with no hope and nothing to look for join Hamas."

Both politicians went out of their way to emphasise their strong support for the existence of the state of Israel. Baroness Williams' late husband Richard Neustadt is Jewish and Mr Bercow is a Jew who has visited Israel as a Conservative Friend of Israel.....

So I think it is ok, in fact necessary, to criticize the Israeli government. But it is not ok to question Israel's right to exist.

US Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice told Palestinian president Mahmud Abbas on Thursday that Israel was ready to discuss "fundamental issues" to advance the stalled Middle East peace.

"The prime minister (Ehud Olmert) said to me that he will support new discussions with you and that he is ready to discuss the fundamental issues that will lead to negotiations soon for the creation of a Palestinian state," Rice told Abbas at a joint press conference in Ramallah.

When asked to elaborate, she said: "I think the word fundamental speaks for itself... I think the desire to move towards a two-state solution seems to be there on both sides."

It was not clear from her remarks, however, whether Olmert had agreed to discuss "core issues" as the Palestinians have been pushing for months -- the thorniest problems of the conflict such as the status of Jerusalem and borders....

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Soon, massive amounts of money from American-based Darbyite Christian fundamentalists began pouring into the Jerusalem operations, aimed, ultimately, at blowing up the Muslim holy sites at the Temple Mount, and building the Third Temple. The American Jerusalem Temple Foundation was one early source of financing for this insane effort. According to Dolphin's exhaustive writings, now posted on his website, another big source of largesse has been Chuck Missler, a U.S. Naval Academy graduate and CEO of a string of U.S. defense companies, who runs a Darbyite publishing firm, Koinonia House, which propagandizes for the destruction of the Islamic sites and the building of the Third Temple.

beliefnet.com/story/151/story_15165_2.html

the Jerusalem Temple Foundation, founded by Stanley Goldfoot, which is committed to the destruction of the Dome of the Rock (Rapoport 1984). As a member of the Stern Gang, Goldfoot was responsible for planting the bomb at the King David Hotel in Jerusalem on 22nd July 1946 which killed 100 British soldiers and officials. In 1948 he was also convicted and jailed by an Israeli court for the murder of UN envoy Count Bernadotte. Goldfoot has subsequently been influential in raising large sums of money, allegedly up to $100 million a year, for the JTF through American Christian TV and Radio stations and evangelical churches (Halsell 1986: 106).
cc-vw.org/articles/icejmelisende.htm

Despite his past, Goldfoot became popular among a number of leading American dispensationalists who found his support of a third Temple compatible with their own views. In the early-1980s, he and a number of American dispensationalists, including Terry Reisenhoover, James DeLoach, Doug Kreiger, Charles Monroe, and Hilton Sutton, founded the Jerusalem Temple Foundation in Los Angeles, to provide financial support for the Temple Movement in Israel. Reisenhoover, who failed in numerous attempts to find oil in Israel (whose revenues he wanted to use to finance the Temple-building), served as the Foundation's board chair. He appointed Goldfoot as the Foundation's international secretary and sponsored him on numerous speaking tours of American evangelical churches, during which he raised millions of dollars for the cause.

beliefnet.com/story/151/story_15165_2.html

It is no small irony that the Darbyism preached by Dolphin, Missler, and the other central figures in the American Jerusalem Temple Foundation, is deeply anti-Semitic. At the core of the Gnostic "dispensational premillennarianism," advocated by Nineteenth-Century Anglican clergyman John Nelson Darby, is the belief that the extermination of the Jews, in a final battle of Armageddon, brought on by the rebuilding of Solomon's Temple, is the Biblical precondition for the second coming of the Messiah and the Rapture. Pastor Chuck Smith, Dolphin's mentor at the Calvary Baptist Church, when asked by EIR whether he had any compunctions about unleashing a holy war that would lead to the possible extermination of millions of Jews and Muslims, replied, "Frankly, no, because it is all part of Biblical prophesy."

The Temple Foundation is dedicated to rebuilding the temple in Jerusalem to prepare for the Second Coming. The group believes that there will be a horrible nuclear showdown at Armageddon (a place west of Jerusalem) preceeding the rebuilding of the "Third Temple." Goldfoot is an extremist who feels "We should be running a worldwide propaganda campaign and using clever promotions and preparing public opinion for the day we drop a nuclear device on Damascus... . and time it possibly with another on Libya."(27) The ICEJ denies giving money to Goldfoot. (4)


rightweb.irc-online.org/gw/2799

For several decades the ministry of Koinonia House has been to create, develop, and distribute educational materials for those who take the Bible seriously as the inerrant Word of God. As an affiliated ministry, the Koinonia Institute is focused on three supporting areas:

1) To provide instructional programs to facilitate serious study of the Bible among thinking Christians;

2) To encourage and facilitate both individual and small group weekly study programs for personal growth; and

3) To research, monitor and publish information to stimulate awareness of the strategic trends which impact our times and our personal ministries.


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Sorry we ran out of usernames.