"Fintan," Hertzberg, Kos, DU, Brad, Bev, and the Raw Story

manufactured grassroots, disinfo, and insidious marketing
Joined: 12 May 2007, 00:58

Unread post 02 Mar 2008, 02:42 #1

Previous Threads:
Steven Hertzberg Needs to be Investigated for Fraud

{on edit- these next two links are broken after being merged into the one thread above. Also I apologize for any bad writing I have provided on this forum. I have not made one penny for my efforts. Most of the time I have been able to fix the roughdrafts, other times I have left things the way they were.}

Open to the Public
Hertzberg- Page One Looking Good

I've been banned from BreakForDisinfoNews

The last days I've been on the attack as Paulo_Freire at "Fintan Dunne's" disinfo palace. That's the place where Steven Hertzberg of the Election Science Institute had been a prolific poster {Navari} there before being outed. At the end of this post, I'll put up the screenshots from one specific thread.

I had been requesting for a long time to be turned into a guest. One post a while back, I even deliberately cursed in an effort to get banned. I wanted out.

I have read DailyKos posters before saying how Kos does the same thing. He doesn't let people remove themselves from his forum. That's not right. If a person wants to leave a forum, they should be able to.

This is what I saw when I tried to see if there were any developments.


I then went to the proxy. I wanted to make sure I had been turned into a guest. I was surprised to see that my account was still active.


Fakes don't seem to get the point that I am not someone to play games with. I will take screenshots, and I will try my best to articulate my side of the story. John "Sluggo" Dean had requested a while back that I lay off of Bev Harris. I had started to post about the Clinton cigars. There was the brouhaha with Keith Olbermann, tho' I'm not sure I ever posted about that. John Dean, not that John Dean, and myself first met on the internet on the Citizenspook message board. That was right before I would sign up with Fintan's disinfo cult. Basically, there are a few things I could take Bev Harris to task for, but what is really striking is the extent of the attacks on her that have taken place on the Democratic Underground. Plus, with all the good she has done, I wasn't about to let her being a conservative get in the way of formulating a fair assessment of her character. I was never looking to throw Bev under the bus.

Here's a strange post left by Steven Hertzberg/Navari at BreakForNews. Notice how he was turned into a guest. Only the admin can do that. Also notice the date he made the post, and what he said. Quite strange for a Ron Paul supporter, no?


I then tried to sign in with my password through the proxy. This is what I saw.


"Fintan Dunne" has an extensive internet background. He has been prolific at nutjob websites like Rumor Mill News. He is also BreakForNews at the Democratic Underground. He even has claimed to have decoded an alien language. It can take a month or two before someone realises his a total fake. A guy like Kos can go on for years with not so many realising his hidden agendas. Meanwhile, people like Bev Harris can be railroaded and cybersmeared fairly quickly. Lately Kos has been attacking BradBlog for being "conspiracy nutters." I believe that eventually, with all of us, the truth comes out in the wash. We may not always make the best post, but overall, people can figure out if we are sincere or not.

I started to doubt Fintan Dunne about a month or so after thinking he might be legit. It made sense to me that there were all these places on the net like Rense and Flocco making a mockery out of truthseekers. One of the first rightwing talking points from Dunne that became obvious was the over-the-top debunking of global warming. Dunne was presenting BFN as a lefty/peacenik kind of place. Not to get into debating over global warming, but statistically it made no sense how 98% of them were global warming debunkers.

A few years ago he came out with a list of domains he considered to be unduly influenced by the CIA. The list made sense to me, except to be honest, I never heard too much about Bev Harris, BradBlog, or the RawStory that much. I was duped. I became a useful idiot. But there were always a few brave types who would confront "Fintan." Finally, I joined their side. We simply wanted him to cough up the proof for his list. That list turned out to be a big bluff.

Now, I've always had some doubts about him, that perhaps he himself was some kind of intel. type mole. But I never really thought about it too much. I stayed on the chemtrail thread for the most part. I read next to nothing of the other people, just enough to know it would be a rabbithole. I never listened to "Fintan's" audios.

I had an epiphany the other day. I took another look at his list. I was so sure I would see Democratic Underground and Kos listed. But they weren't!

Bev Harris, Bradblog, RawStory, even Ralph Nader were on the list. But I had only seen folks like Flocco, Rivero, and Rense. That's how I was duped for the month or so.

Why Bev, Brad, and Larisa? Why not Kos and and Democratic Underground.

The epiphany was that all these domains are tied together with the election fraud topic. I won't ramble on about this. There is plenty of info already collected. I refuse to keep reinventing wheels. It is up to the reader to decide, to connect the dots.

My Conclusions:

It appears that "Fintan Dunne" and Steven Hertzberg were in some kind of working relationship at BreakForNews. I see no other explanation for Dunne turning Navari into a guest. It served to protect him and hush up all the questions. Navari did two interviews with Fintan, one of which was about Steven's idea of a full spectrum liberty. Navari had made posts about it. He was beyond prolific at BreakForDisinfoNews. BFN reminds me of a cult. Anyone who dared question the majority's views, be them on global warming, chemtrails, or a number of topics I noticed, such as with the fakes list, the herd would bully any independent thought off of the board.

ESI had a close relationship with Damshroeder of Ohio. Hertzberg even started a journal endorsing him. Damschroeder is a Karl Rove Republican. While Hertzberg tried to astroturf that ESI was not partisan or biased in any ways, the truth is that he came out strong against any notions of election fraud. That lines up with DailyKos. Kos makes fun of Brad Friedman, tries to turn him into a "conspiracy nutter." Bev Harris and BradBlog are the two election fraud activists who most call out for paper ballots and an end to the Diebold type machines. Democratic Underground throws Bev Harris completely under a tank, not even a bus. Fintan calls out Brad and Bev as being fakes. When a real fake like Navari got exposed, he protected him, turning him into the guest.

Here's a good Democratic Underground thread in which a few posters were more like Socrates than I could ever hope. At first, Hertzberg is like ask away, I'm right here guys. By the end, after his words were starting to expose his Kos-like attitude towards election reform, he bailed out. Fintan and Hertzberg have been acting as democratics and/or progressives. But if one were to take a guess, after what we know now, they may end up wondering whether both of them work for Karl Rove or one of his associates.

Does anyone know information on Election Science Institute, formerly Votewatch?

All I wanted to have happen was be turned into a guest. Now "Fintan Dunne" has made a strategic error. These facts will filter out into the collective consciousness. People will find out the truth. I have made a few posts today at BradBlog, sharing with them my epiphany.

VIDEO: MSNBC's Dan Abrams Calls for Gov. Don Siegelman's Release From Prison Pending Appeal
...I have found closure with Fintan Dunne, Steven Hertzberg of ESI, Kos, Democratic Underground, Brad, Bev, and Raw Story. Fintan Dunne has taken over my username at his breakfornews disinfo website. He is doing what Kos does as regards to not letting people off his member list.

Here's a preview. Fintan Dunne called out Brad, Larisa, and Bev as being CIA fakes. Who did he leave off the list? Democratic Underground and the DailyKos. Please connect the dots folks. Steven Hertzberg was a prolific poster at break for news. His username was turned into a guest, making it more difficult to check out his posts. My account is still active. But I now need to go to a proxy to view that dive. My password no longer works.

....There is nothing at Dunne's place on Siegelman except for one obscure thread from a long time ago which Dunne ignored. Before he stole my username, Paulo_Freire, I took him to task for having no proof for his fakes list and for ignoring the Siegelman story. I requested that I be turned into a guest, i.e., taken off the members list. Members are unable to do that. Only the admin can. So Hertzberg is scrubbed and pruned, while I am held prisoner?

I believe that Dunne and Hertzberg were attempting to disseminate disinfo through using tactics similar to those used by cults. How was Hertzberg's cover blown? He told his name to another member who requested it, in exchange for going on skype with him. But Hertzberg later pissed that person off. That dude revealed Hertzberg's name. Then that got scrubbed quick. But a third poster took the name and ran with it. Hertzberg was already all over Ron Paul, had already posted about his website ronpaulonline. The third poster connected the dots. He posted about ESI. Hertzberg/Navari had already tried to bully me before. When I learned that he was Navari, then I ran with the ball.

I am a nobody who is sick and tired of all the bull happening on the internet. I have been fighting back.

Here are some screenshots showing what drew me back there and the exchanges with "Fintan" which ended with him hijacking my username.If by the slim chance anyone ever asks you {the reader} about "Fintan Dunne," it wouldn't hurt to direct them towards this thread. 8)

{Not to get paranoid, I wouldn't be surprised if places like BreakForNews and Chemtrail Central are messing with my posts. They've done it with others.If anyone ever reads me, and it doesn't sound like me, there's your answer. Oops, almost forgot to say Fintan not only did two audios with Hertzberg, he also interviewd Ron Paul. Oh yeah, according to Fintan, Sibel Edmonds is CIA too. His new big story is NIU Shooting: The Untold Story, a conspirotainment slant on a recent tragedy. He has had nothing to say about Don Siegelman. Even when I threw him a bone, he had nothing to say on a story that really matters. I don't see him making money off of all his "journalism." Is Fintan Dunne a spook? Heck, yeah, imho.}

is JF a disinfo agent or just cluelless?

{on edit- I've taken down a slew of screenshots I took. If somehow they are altered, and I become aware of that, then the proof can be reposted. The folks at BreakForNews are professional liars. They are running a cult over there. When one has the gall to confront them on their inconsistencies or their apparent ties to Republican/rightwing talking points, one is sent to "Silent Hill." That means one's account is frozen, and the points are ignored until they are bumped off the front page. Then the astroturfers carry on with their bullshit as if nothing has happened.

I resigned up as Not_A_Fake and made a few posts. I am done with them. There are certain paid trolls who never respond to good points. How any of them can justify the freezing of accounts, the bannings, without any public acknowledgement amazes me. My Paulo_Freire account is also still active. So for now, folks can go there and see my posts. Fintan Dunne is a rightwing operative, no doubt. He has nothing on Siegelman. He continues to call BradBlog, Bev Harris, and Sibel Edmonds CIA fakes.}

Then "Fintan's" researcher, "Kathy McMahon" chimes in. This cult likes to use avatars with the one eye.


{More on edit: If you're gonna ban someone, turn them into a guest. Navari/Hertzberg was turned into one, while others like myself were sent to "Silent Hill," whatever that means. That place is a rightwing disinfo cult dressed in progressive clothes.}
Last edited by socrates on 05 Mar 2008, 17:57, edited 1 time in total.

Joined: 12 May 2007, 00:58

Unread post 04 Mar 2008, 00:43 #2

Why did Fintan Dunne put Brad Friedman on his CIA 9/11 fakes list? Brad Friedman has had nothing to do with 9/11 questions. BradBlog was put on the list to discredit all people fed up with the widespread election anomalies. DailyKos isn't on the list. Neither is Democratic Underground. "Dunne" still posts at the Democratic Underground. Steven Hertzberg is also a member of DU, although I don't think he has posted there in a long time. I still can't believe how absent-minded he was to give away his identity and tie him in with Republican operatives such as Ron Paul and this Dunne fake. He endorsed that Republican Damschroder, who I'm never sure if I am spelling his name correctly. In that link above, he first said he'd answer any questions. When the real people started picking apart the facade shadowing his hidden agenda of squelching election reform, he bailed out quicker than Bill Belichik at the Super Bowl. {By the way, you haters out there should lay off of Bill and the Patriots.}

I've got links to offer that should help fill in the pieces. DailyKos, Democratic Underground, and Fintan Dunne have been busy gatekeepers. It will be shown through these links that rightwing/disinfo have insidiously hijacked the progressive platform. Basically, real progressives have been getting squeezed out of having an equal voice in reaching masses of people with the truth.

So all these internet sites are CIA fakes according to Fintan Dunne!

Bev Harris is a CIA plant? lol

Man, Fintan has gone off the fucking deep end

Note: We do not contend that everyone associated with these websites are knowing intelligence operatives. Some have been professionally manipulated, others merely misled. In any event these are promoting the psyop agendas and disinformation themes of the covert controllers. This is also not meant to be a fully comprehensive listing of all the fake websites.

truthout, rawstory & bradblog?


"promoting the psyop agendas and disinformation themes of the covert .."


Interesting allegation, and I could believe it for some of those sites.

But I have to ask where he got this information, and why he's more credible than those other sources.

I don't believe it. Why no wingnut sites??


"Why no wingnut sites"

Was just going to say that

when I scrolled your reply into view. Funny that CIA only plants lefty peacenik sites.

What? No DU??

How disappointing.

Sorry, but...Who the HELL is Fintan Dunne?!

And why should we care about his "opinion"?


Another Bev Harris smear campaign in the works?

Who the heck is this guy Kelvin Mace to always be attacking Bev Harris with next to no evidence? Anyone can check out his posts, engine search his name and Bev's and see how devoted he has been to throwing her under the bus. You can also read between the lines quite often and see that he doesn't think there has been any election fraud. He is a smarmy Hertzberg type saying yes, there are problems, but that elections haven't been stolen. He is a rabbit hole in himself. His chief function has been to tear down Bev Harris. He dominates the election threads at DU just like Fintan and his sock puppets dominate his whackjob website. They are rigged forums, much like Chemtrail Central and DailyKos.

I have never commented on one of these threads. I'm sure I'll regret it Image

...but I have to say this.

A few weeks ago, someone showed up and attacked one of our very best posters, someone who has done wonderful work to stop election fraud. Land Shark took major grief for having the temerity to think and analyze the full impact of HR550. His work on that is first rate, I should know. I wrote an article with him on the subject. In any event, the attack started with some garbage about "HR550 Opposed by Bev Harris and Bots" and descended from there. It was guilt by association and unseemly, to say the least.

I truly hope nobody else gets smeared.

We can look forward to the day when the election fraud scandal gets so big it passes us all by and gets handled properly.
So Mace takes care of Bev Harris, while DailyCIAKos takes care of BradBlog. Did I mention that DU and Kos aren't on the rightwing operative's fake list? 8)



I have been "warned"
by CindySheehan
Thu Jul 12, 2007
I can't post here anymore because my potential run for Congress
is not on the Democratic ticket.

I have been deeply grateful for all of your support over the years.
Your love and kindness helped me through lots of sleepless nights
at Camp Casey '05.

If Speaker Pelosi does her constitutionally mandated duty and I don't run,
then I can come back and post.

I know a lot of you are hostile towards my candidacy. Please
understand that I am doing it for your children and grandchildren
(and my surviving ones.)

Love always,

Kos attacks Cynthia McKinney.

onemike wrote: Will Diebold Some Day Advertise on DailyKos?
Jul 20, 2006

Since Cynthia McKinney's strong opposition to President Bush has given her national notoriety, the Republican machine in Georgia has put extra effort into unseating her. Her district is heavily black and Democratic-leaning, so this has in practice meant running a conservative in the Democratic primary and encouraging Republicans to cross over in the open primary system.

This year the open primary used Diebold voting machines. It's likely that Cynthia was a victim of Diebold fraud. She now faces a run-off with Hank Johnson, who has piles of advertising money from Republican donors. To read about the fraud, see: cynthiaforcongress.com/news.php?id=29

WHY IS KOS ALLOWING ADVERTISING FOR HER OPPONENT, a Republican stooge, Hank Johnson? This is a guy that Diebold could really get behind. Why is Kos behind it too? I really hope it's just laziness.

Cynthia McKinney is a progressive in every sense of the word. She was one of our first and only congresspeople to speak out against Bush's manipulation of the events of 9/11 for political gain, and it almost cost her her political life. She has also been more active than almost any other Democratic politician in uncovering voter fraud in the 2000 and 2004 presidential elections.

I have no connection with Cynthia Kinney's campaign, or any other. I don't work in politics. I'm just a concerned citizen. And seeing that ad makes me never want to visit this site again. If you feel the same way, reccomend this diary, so Kos and other site administrators can read this.
I located the part of the ad in question at a website named DUmmie FUnnies.


Progressive writer Chris Floyd gets tossed by DailyCIAKos.

Is Daily Kos a closed society?
by thor
Fri Jun 02, 2006

Kos is a gatekeeper for election fraud. This is what people like "Kelvin Mace," Kos, and Hertzberg do. They act like they care. They even might have written a good post on election fraud once before. But ultimately, those moments have been so very rare. This is one of the only posts I have seen where Kos mentions Diebold in a negative way. Check out how he was boxing in the investigation as tinfoil back in 2003.

September 23, 2003
Kos wrote:Diebold machines are scary shit

Many of you have urged me to write about electronic voting machines in the past, but I've demurred. It lends way too much to defeatist "they're going to steal the election anyway, so why bother voting" talk.

Not only that, but I wanted to make sure the tin-foil-hat aspect of the issue was cleared out.

"Kelvin Mace" agrees with Kos, highlights the need to rant about "Bevamites" and their tinfoil. This link was concerning a few months ago when Kos and his hacks and shills were busy equating BradBlog with "conspiracy nutters." He linked to Kos, quoted him, and then came out with this disnfo gem, just more of his modus operandi.

Daily Kos - "Enough with the "Diebold Hacked the NH Primary" Lunacy"
Submitted knowing it will never convince the die-hard Bevemites.

One last point. John Dean seems to have had his blog devoted to outing the Democratic Underground scrubbed. It would be nice to know why he deleted it. I haven't seen him {Sluggo} posting lately at BradBlog. I've always wondered about him as regards to his self-described troll busting. He kind of has had a Fintan Dunne like way of making claims without too much proof.

At this place, we try very hard not to make claims that we can't back up with proof, be them links, screenshots, or just downright, brutal honesty. I won't throw him completely under the bus. But sometimes i do wonder, if he has been trying to steer Bev Harris as regards to having cyber fights with the bullshit DU crowd.

There are only two possibilities as regards to Bev Harris. Either she has been acting all these years setting up a fake fight. Or, as I believe, she has been the victim of her own individual flaws {e.g. selling Clinton cigars} and the obvious smear job on her. Is she a fake? I don't think so. I'm also not saying John Dean {Sluggo} is a fake, either.

But I do call out Kos, Fintan Dunne, Hertzberg, and David Allen {Kelvin Mace} of DU as being gatekeepers whitewashing election fraud. I don't have proof that they are spooks. Well, except for Kos. But all of them have in their own ways obfuscated and warped the truth about election fraud in America.

Joined: 12 May 2007, 00:58

Unread post 04 Mar 2008, 22:51 #3

I don't think John Dean is a fake. This is an open apology to him, if that's how my writings at all appeared. We had a lot of misunderstandings a while back. I did find out that he is still blogging in his free time, and that he was never banned from BradBlog or anything like that.

Imho, the ptb's never expected real people to figure out the astroturfing. I think they figured they would be able to troll and twist everything into insignificant, internet chatter. But now they are getting scared. That is why there are all these cybersmears going on. DailyKos is now damaged goods. That was a big chunk of the gatekeeper script.

RawStory, BradBlog, and many others are speaking truth to power with good links and sources.

We are witnessing a critical mass of awareness forming where scripted astroturfing is seen for what it is. Real people are getting the word out. People are becoming internet savvy.

Joined: 12 May 2007, 00:58

Unread post 05 Mar 2008, 19:51 #4

Myself and John Dean had a falling out a few months back. We recently were able to clear the air between us. I finally put my ego to the side and checked out some of his troll busting. We agree that we have this similar troll-busting, pitbull attitude. Crystal Rose is kind of like this too. The three of us, in fact most people in general, do not like injustice to go unchallenged.

So I apologize again for ever thinking Dean {SluggoJD} has ever been like Fintan Dunne and the fakes list. He does back up his claims with proof.

One thing trolls, paid or otherwise do, is claim that good points from the past are old news. The problem with that outlook is that there are always gonna be newbies and fence sitters who will stumble across a topic, be it the White House Iraq Group think tanking us into an illegal war, to something like this he said, she said between David "Kelvin Mace" Allen and Bev Harris. Truthseekers are indebted to John Dean for watching Bev's back all these years. I have seen him admit to her personal failings. I've never seen him deny things like that, e.g. Clinton cigars. From my viewpoint, he has gone beyond the call of duty to expose Kelvin Mace from the Democratic Underground and figure out that a Rob Pelletier of Diebold has also been astroturfing against Bev Harris.

I will provide some good links. The smear campaign against Bev Harris has backfired. Personally, I was having some real issues with her. The Clinton cigar thing? I would love to see a quote from her saying she was wrong and regrets having done that. They tried to make her out to be the queen of the pondscum with this Andy Stephenson thing. I haven't come across anything other than cyberbully posts discrediting her work, usually calling her a grifter.

The attacks on Bev Harris resemble those that were hurled at Cindy Sheehan. These have been coordinated attacks against popular activists who posed a threat to the status quo. The same kind of shit has been thrown at Ralph Nader, Michael Moore, Medea Benjamin, The Dixie Chicks, you know what I mean.

Unlike "Fintan Dunne," folks like John and I realise we have to back up claims with evidence. Why has Fintan been mentioned so much? Is he not simply a goofball trying to make a buck off the internet?

No he isn't. One can check out his website and internet history and see that he can't possibly be making any money at all. A guy like BradBlog, he's got ads. He works hard to make it an interesting, informative place. With Fintan, it's just not adding up. And you really want to know why it is important to never forget this disinfo creep exists? Because Steven Hertzberg of the Election Science Institute was his #1 poster.

From all that is known and can be proven, there has been an extensive network of astroturfers covering up the election fraud. I am gonna let the links and a few choice quotes do the talking. Oh yeah, almost forgot what I most wanted to say. Dinsinfo astroturfers like "Kelvin Mace" need to learn the art of subtlety. It was one thing to have a few cybersmear threads on Bev Harris. But when it goes on and on and on. When these condescending blowhards keep evoking authority without proof, when they shout down anyone who dares to have independent thought, when basically it is fairly damn obvious they are smearing someone with no proof, then sincere newbies and fence sitters are going to seek out both sides. Basically, the disinfo astroturfing has been too over the top. You know what I mean good people, the methinks doth protest too much thingie.

I am not tooting my own horn here about the shit I've accumulated on Hertzberg. I just felt it was important to nail down that he truly was posting at the nutjob conspiracy cult site. Now that this has sunken in, connecting the dots has become much easier. This factual nugget allows us to understand why "Fintan Dunne" put Bev and the BradBlog on his fakes list but kept out DailyKos and Democratic Underground. Kos has pretty much been calling BradBlog a "conspiracy nutter" for blogging mostly about the election problems. DU has had this Kelvin Mace ripping apart Bev Harris. I think Dunne, Hertzberg, Kos, Allen/Mace and his DU posse, and even this Diebold guy Pelletier know each other and have been coordinating their internet activities in order to gatekeep the election fraud. That's how I see the dots connecting.

Trolls, Trojan Horse Trolls, and Diebold's Robert Pelletier
by SluggoJD
Tue Jul 4th, 2006

David Allen {Kelvin Mace} is on record supporting both Pelletier and Hertzberg. We'll get to his support of Hertzberg a bit later. At this link above there are plenty of other links also where folks can go to read various dots.
SluggoJD wrote:David Allen, Bev's former, fired publisher, has this to say about the recent expose' on Diebold's Robert Pelletier: "She claims that the site hosting this MP3 is a Diebold front, but offers no proof."

No proof David?
(courtesy of blackboxvoting.org)

Today, I will take people step-by-step through the evidence that proves Diebold's Robert Pelletier is behind a covert campaign to harass and malign Bev Harris, and other folks involved in BBV research....

Here John dean showed up to again defend Bev Harris against the astroturfers. At this forum, he also has another thread which he started on Andy Stephenson. The vibe I get from John is that he just wants critics of Bev Harris to supply proof or stfu. I am supplying this link just to show that John Dean hasn't fallen off the side of the earth, that he is still out there plugging away for fair debate.

weblogawards link

Bev Harris made a great point in this August 2006 post basically agreeing with the idea that we should connect dots.

black box voting forum
Bev Harris wrote:There's a food fight going on at democratic libelground over ESI:


They are eliciting interesting diagnostic information on propaganda artist "kelvin mace" (David Nicholas Allen) there.....

3) His recent attack victims: Anyone who is not controllable and thinks for themself on the voting machine issue. Specifically, now it's Cynthia McKinney;, whom he calls "a loon" and "nearly certifiable"; all individuals who believe hand-counted paper ballots should be further explored; anyone who fails to support HR 550; he also smears Hursti in e-mails, calling Harri Hursti a "plagiarist."

4) His alliances: ESI, Rob Pelletier (Diebold employee who does disinformation); EFF; technologists like Doug Jones, Avi Rubin, Wertheimer, Dill.

Don't rebut the guy, just continue to elicit and study his alliances. There's an agenda behind this, and it involves shutting down debate and communication that doesn't fit the planned "consensus"; it doesn't involve real citizen oversight. The idea is to centralize power and trust a selected group of experts, and Kelvin Mace is one of the designated attack dogs who publicly ridicules people who don't follow the proper idealogical platform. His techniques are professional, textbook stuff originally published in an army propaganda manual.

We're supposed to turn over our critical thought processes to a handful of experts. The same experts who led us into election 2004 without telling what they knew. The same experts that never told the public about the bootloader problem. The same experts that failed to utter a peep about the central tabulators. The same ones that recently published in a paper that they told the vendor about a critical security flaw, but never told the public that the machines were unsuitable for use. The same experts who failed to notice that you can own any Diebold touch-screen with a phillips head screwdriver.

You can trust them or you can insist on true citizen oversight.

Mace defending Hertzberg:

Cleveland Hires Election Science Institute - go to this thread
by AutoRank

Kelvin Mace wrote: 7. Interesting to note

that Steven Hertzberg si one of Bev's early victims, and has been attacked in this forum by Bev supporters for his failure to embrace various Bev "truths". The usual tactics were used, insinuations that he was secretly in the pay of Diebold, et al.

And now we are seeing aspersions cast again.

Can you tell me when ESI was ever a paid lobbyist of any voting machine vendor?

I take it then that if you disagree with ESI's report, you find the voting machines in Ohio to be completely reliable?
Mod Mom wrote:8. Hertzberg has been criticized by Ohio ER groups NOT because of BBV

but for his failure to respond to inquiries on a report based on precinct level data collected by many within the ER community. He promised a report and after many attempts to contact him regarding this, he never replied. He re-surfaced in the spring of 2005 after it was announced by Matt Damshroeder (R Director of the Franklin Co BOE) that ESI/Votewatch would be working with them. His report for Damshroeder left many to question his intent. He was invited to make his case at the spring 2005 CASE-Ohio ER Teach-In, but declined to participate.

More recently, after the May 2006, while working for Cuyahoga Co his comments on the disastrous election (I will have to search for the link) stated voters were satisfied with the electronic voting machines. (This after the disastrous election which lead one 60+ old man to attact the machines.)


Kelvin Mace reminds me of Navari/Hertzberg, the bullying, the evoking of authority. It'd be interesting to find out when those two first met. Here Mace showed he had no problems with Hertzberg's findings on the significance of exit poll discrepancies.
Kelvin Mace wrote:14. Again, you are spinning the story because you don't like the facts

Hertzber is stating the facts of a poll, not endorsing the machine. Why do folks always have a problem with understanding this?

13. Every time I have investigated

claims against the man it boiled down to anger at him because he refused to embrace people's pet theories about stolen elections. He was accused of saying the election was not stolen, when in fact he said no such thing.

Bev is relevant because, by and large, it is her supporters who attack him and other scientists, and it is her supporters who, by and large, oppose HR-550.

Here's an odd quote. Stephenson was staying with Hertzberg?
Mod Mom wrote:17. Did you read my post? He failed to respond after activists worked on

gathering precinct level data.

Oh by the way Andy Stephenson was one of the activisits who worked with us in Ohio, in fact he stayed at the residence where I first met Hertzberg.
Here Mace admitted he's tight with Hertzberg.
Yes, I read your post

and will inquire after it with him. I exepct yet another case of anger because he refuses to give scientific sanction to faulty data, but I will ask him.

The OP insinuates that ESI was hired by a voting machine vendor and has worked as a lobbyist for a voting machine vendor. Is this your view as well? If so, do you have any evidence to back up this insinuation? If not, do you condemn the post?
mod mom wrote:
20. I interpret the OP as asking who hired ESI. It is obvious that the Repub

controlled (2 R and 2 D's with Blackwell (R) as tie breaker) Cuyahoga Co BOE hired ESI in fact I posted a link to the Cleveland Plain Dealer that says as much.


21. from post # 9:

"Under a $275,000 county contract, Election Science will continue to study the May 2 vote, partly by auditing the tallies on three kinds of media: paper, memory cards and the machines' internal records.

County commissioners are expected Thursday to give Election Science $66,000 more to survey poll workers about their struggles with the machines."

So first ESI was hired(I believe this was w/o pay) by Damschroeder in Franklin then by Cuyahoga Co.
Mace then again tried to change a subject by ignoring the point, the connection between Hertzberg and Damschroeder. That's a common disinfo tactic.
Kelvin Mace wrote:
26. And because ESI

refuses to state conclusions which are not supported by the facts, they must be crooked.

Fake BBV Site Owned by Diebold PR & More!
by Einsteinia

This link was started in early July, 2006. The one before on ESI was started in August, 2006. Funny that Mace didn't make one post on this Diebold thread, but he did take time to support Hertzberg on the other one. Hertzberg was Stevenstevensteven at DU and did make an appearance to try to bully Mod Mom and Autorank on that ESI thread. These disinfo people don't like it when independent thought can't fit into their connived scripts. During this same time, Hertzberg was at a nutjob website called BreakForNews posting the same kind of bullying. He was also in the process of putting together his Ron Paul website and his general astroturfing for Ron Paul. Yes, there are many dots that need to be connected. Imho, most of them have been. The disinfo fakes are gonna want to stop harrassing Bev Harris and BradBlog and concerned citizens in general. If they keep up with this shit, there are plenty of pitbulls, not just myself and John Dean, who will make sure the true story of Hertzberg, Dunne, Kelvin Mace, DailyCIAKos, Rob Pelletier, and many others will be exposed. There are some of us, in fact most of us, who do not like injustice. We do like independent thought. If the paid trolls want to further expose themselves, then they should just keep on trying to push us around.
Nobody - I mean nobody - pulls the wool over the eyes of a Gambini

Joined: 12 May 2007, 00:58

Unread post 07 Mar 2008, 01:33 #5

If so, his job had been to whitewash election fraud through his now scrubbed Election Science Institute. Then his job became to astroturf for Ron Paul, and to spread tinfoil at a disgusting website called BreakForNews.

May41970 has said that we have to try to put ourselves in the dark side's shoes, in order to get a better grasp of what their objectives are. When Hertzberg got exposed as just another nutjob, there were a few domains of his that got deleted fairly quickly. His Hertzberg.org got deleted. There one could see that he used to work for the Department of Defense. There was another domain he scrubbed. On the surface it seemed to have been just another blog. It seemed to tie in with his internet history of making a lot of posts on current events.

I think the limited hangout is that Hertzberg is a regular tinfoil Joe who simply got exposed posting at the crazy website. That he got exposed astroturfing for Ron Paul. That it is what it is.

But what's up with the following? I dug a bit yesterday and found links which seem to indicate that Hertzberg has been involved in an extensive astroturfing network.



So to think like Hertzberg would be to ask, why did he delete and scrub what he did?

Did Hertzberg run a company named Gelemen Ltd. which sold and/or used a product named Gelamen Knowledge Management software? Is that what he has been scared of all of us figuring out? I realise the materials on top10th.net on this forum are tough to figure out. But I did find that strange website through googling Hertzberg and Leo Laporte. It did seem to be all about "knowledge management."

I think Hertzberg was very involved with the company Gelemen Ltd. because the company doesn't seem to still exist. When I hit for the available links on it, I get the 404 error pages. I never heard of a gelemen before. What are the odds that Hertzberg had a domain with a nearly identical name to a company dealing with a product with the exact same name, a product which dealt with the collection of information?


Try any of the links on that page. They are not working.

This next link is available for now in cache. The current page, however, has been scrubbed.


The P stands for connecting people to people.

The link to Gelemen Ltd. doesn't work, but the wayback machine still does. It leads us to Brad Hoyt of Hoyt Consulting and the general area in which Hertzberg lives.

Knowledge, Creativity, and Innovation Management are about connecting people to people and people to information to create competitive advantage.

The best links I found which may shed some light on all this are the following two. The first is for the pdf with the 2nd one the cache html version.

html link

html link



What is the "Rocket Consortium" about?

Towards a Road Map for Knowledge Leadership in e-Learning
16 Jan 2003. 2182 visits
Carlo Donzella, Manager, Rocket Project

ROCKET is an acronym for Roadmap to Communicating Knowledge Essential for the Industrial Environment. It has attracted a great deal of attention, because it is looking at the convergence of work in two areas now seen to be of particularly high importance: e-learning (e-L) and knowledge management (KM). It goes considerably beyond today’s mainstream commercial practice in e-L, which some commentators (e.g., Lefrere, 2002) have criticised as being better described as “e-telling”. The primary focus of much of today’s commercial offerings is the delivery of content, in ways that are little better than “page-turning” and are arguably conducive to surface learning. This may explain the common observation that graduates of some of today’s e-L courses find it difficult to apply their knowledge in contexts that differ only marginally from the examples provided in the course......

By contrast, ROCKET takes a more holistic view of e-L. This embraces the notion from modern KM that there are socially-determined links between learning, sense-making, knowledge creation and modes of communicating knowledge.....

A further novel feature of ROCKET is that it looks at a spectrum of needs, from the needs of individual engineers and knowledge workers, to the needs of groups of learners, to the needs of individual organisations, to the needs of groups of organisations (for example in a supply chain or in a collaborative project). In each case, ROCKET considers how e-L can be enhanced through the use of KM concepts, approaches and architectures. Its surveys and analyses draw upon insights from key KM RTD stakeholders including researchers from industry and academia, technology providers, businesses and end users. In addition, it takes account of likely convergences in the standards being developed in e-L and KM....

It sounds to me like this has to do with the latest innovations in the troll linguistic sciences.

Anyone who hasn't done so can still for now check out Hertzberg's posts at BreakForDisinfoNews.

google search for site:breakfornews.com navari

What was he doing there? He was often a self-centered bully dominating that shithole of a domain. It looks like his job was to further clutter the internet with conspiracy chatter noise. Such efforts were basically about creating strawmen and rabbit holes. No doubt about it, but "Fintan Dunne" is now oficially cooked as an internet blogger. He can continue with his snide remarks about Sibel Edmonds. He can continue to think he is still a factor. He isn't. Now what about Hertzberg? He can't afford to come out from under his rock and answer all the obvious questions. He simply now has no credibility. Before we knew he was a leading poster at that Fintan cult website, we had no reason to think there was anything more insidious about him than that he is buddies with Republicans like Damschroder, and that his Election Science Institute was a total flop as regards to putting the lid on talk about the Ohio election fraud of 2004. We never would have taken as close a look at his role. He would have become a footnote.

Let's try to think like the trolls. Obviously we can see old Navari posts. We can still see how he was shamed at the Democratic Underground by the sincere posters. We see how David "kelvin Mace" Allen watched his back for him. We see how Kelvin Mace has gone after Bev Harris above and beyond and whatnot. We now know that there was this Pelletier dude from Diebold who set up a fake blog smearing Bev Harris. We now know that BradBlog and Bev Harris among others were unfairly and without proof put on the spooky Dunne's fakes list. Connect the friggen dots good people, please.

The internet is full of deliberate machinations and skullduggery. Wow, I liked that last sentence I wrote. Anyway, Confucious said that the good teacher can only show the student three sides of the square. There is now a lot of accumulated proof about this Hertzberg guy. I think it is a limited hangout that he is the blacksheep younger brother of Robert Hertzberg who once ran for mayor of Los Angeles. I believe there is much more to this story. I got trolled on personally by this Navari guy. Navari was one of the meanest bloggers I ever read. If he hadn't dogged me, I never would have felt so motivated to return the favour. If he didn't dog DrewTerry, his name never would have been revealed.

This is the thing. The internet is not the place to form cults. It may work for a given time, but eventually the few are able to get the word out to newbies and fence sitters. The arrogance of the astroturfers knows no bounds. Kos should have kept his mouth shut and never admitted he was CIA. Fintan Dunne should have put up better info and not digress into a total buffoon. Hertzberg should have been smart enough to show more tact and not leave a million internet bread crumbs. David "Kelvin Mace" Allen shouldn't have emoted so much with the Bev Harris smear campaign. Mike Rivero should not have affiliated himself with that nazi forum with the same name as his domain.

"Fintan Dunne" should have put some freeper websites on his fakes list. He should have never decoded alien languages, lol. He should have put DU and Kos on his fakes list. Now it appears that the full story is coming into clear view. There has been an organised troll attack over the years to muddle the election fraud issues. We now understand the who's and the why's. We know this because the dark side is not as bright as they would like to think. It comes back to a line from may41970. Soul cannot be faked.

Joined: 12 May 2007, 00:58

Unread post 09 Mar 2008, 19:13 #6

AA Posts At BradBlog

Things seem to be coming out in the wash. From this link were some very interesting comments. For a bunch of them, it would be nice to know if there is proof. Because if they are correct, all signs are leading to AnonymousArmy of The DailyKos being Steven Hertzberg.
#4 "radiation bomb"

...AA has been repeatedly banned from other sites including Democratic Underground because he is a troll of the worst kind and he spread misinformation, disinformation and uses every dispicable means to discredit reputable people,organizations and causes. And to top it off, he has been traced to a Department of Defense website....

#6 "Stop George"

...Do you advocate e-voting or not? Just curious.

You seem very concerned about this e-voting cause, and yet you don't take the time to write about what your thoughts are on the matter.

For someone who prides himself about being an election official in Canada who votes on paper --- why don't you advocate this more forcefully to your fellow Americans?

#31 "BVAC"

Peter Shilikov, #28

Consider the following diary at DailyKOS.

You will notice that AA is a staunch defender of robp. First by denying that robp even works at Diebold, and after conceding that he does, rationalizing it as a benign employee just trying to set the facts straight....

#44 "Stop George"

Regardless of what his true motives really are, I have noticed one thing that AnonymousArmy avoids like the plague...


Isn't it curious that he advocates making voting a fair process in American --- and prides himself with voting on paper ballots in Canada --- but he will not make a single comment on what he feels about e-voting?

The silence is deafening, IMHO.

#45 "BlueBear2"

...AA's email traces to:

OrgName: Google Inc.
Address: 1600 Amphitheatre Parkway
City: Mountain View
StateProv: CA
PostalCode: 94043
Country: US


We know from Hertzberg's own admission, that he worked for the Department of Defense. The comments from "Stop George" allude to those involved with the Bash Bev Harris brigade. The big names for such activities are Rob Pelletier, David "Kelvin Mace" Allen, and "AnonymousArmy." I cannot vouch for all the claims made above, but if they are true, they indeed point us towards AnonymousArmy being Steven Hertberg.

If the traced e-mail address is correct, for example, I can provide various circumstantial evidence leading us to Hertzberg. How so? Hertzberg is a member of Jaiku which is now well-known due to computer tech god Leo LaPorte's membership. Jaiku is located in Mountain View, CA.. Jaiku is also now part of google. Hertzberg ownned domains also lead us to something called the Heart Mountain Group.

Is Hertzberg a Google employee?


I'm not sure what the following is about, but it makes me wonder.

anonymousarmy.kos.com paid for google adwords? What?

anonymousArmy.dailykos.com Pays for these Google Adwords

Is AnonymousArmy really from Canada? Or is he from the United States? His name also appears to be Steven.

Holy Kos trolls Batman! AnonymousArmy is Free Republic's good friend!

AA reminds me of Navari/Hertzberg. There is the same kind of bullying nature in their posts. I also find it interesting how AA refers to the BradBlog as the BradFlog. It turns out that AA singled out Brad for derision for his posts on Clint Curtis, especially as concerning Curtis' dog being shot. Where have we heard that one before? Oh yeah, from disinfo creep "Fintan Dunne" who put Bev Harris, Brad, and RawStory on his stupid fakes list. What are the odds? Hertzberg was close enough with Dunne to do two interviews with him. Dunne wrote about this Curtis dog story. AnonymousArmy wrote about the Curtis dog story. Coincidence? AA has also attacked the RawStory. Same as Hertzberg's buddy, "Fintan Dunne."
posted by SluggoJD

BoomanTribune profile.

User info for AnonymousArmy
Nickname: AnonymousArmy
User ID #: 628
Country: United States of America

Also, this guy isn't merely worshipped by freepers. He partners with them...here he is as "LiberalAngel, yet another short-lived name at DU, on the home page of scamdy.com.

"My name is Steve, a.k.a. Anonymousarmy, a.k.a. MrNiceguydied," going after Will Pitt.

Who paid for scamdy.com? FR's FrankSolich.
Who set up scamdy.com? AA.....

BradBlog needs to get his facts straight or dump this Dog of a Curtis story
by AnonymousArmy

Brad is lying.

He knows fine the dog isn't dead and he just threw that in right at the beginning to add a sensational element to his story.

I asked him about proof the night he reported it. He said it wasn't important.

The next day I pressed the issue telling him the Curtis story relied on his word against everyone else. That's when he said a police report was filed. When I asked him where Brad became flustered and told me to do my own research. (I'm a casual reader)

Is this anyway for a reporter to act when questioned about events he presented as facts?

I had dropped the whole story until I listened to Blogcall and herd no mention of the Dog but did hear Clint offer to take a polygraph.

Still skeptical I decided to hold off on final judgment until the results of the polygraph we made public.

Well to my chagrin the release of the polygraph just raised more questions about Brad and Clint's credibility.
Fintan and Hertzberg??? Hey readers, you connecting some dots or what? I came very late to this one. Only in this last month have I been digging further into this Kelvin Mace/Bash Bev campaign. This is shocking. We can't let this story get buried. The other side cannot win, if the readers decide. That is why they have probably scaled back with their excessive character assaults on Bev Harris. I think they are scared of the real anonymous army, those of us who have witnessed or learned about this and are pained by the injustice. Imho, because of all their mistakes, I think they now want this to go away. To continue to bash Bev Harris will lead newbies and fence sitters to the other side of their story. Their recent silence seems to line up with when Hertzberg/Navari was exposed as one of "Fintan Dunne's" top posters.

This is from a liberal? This sounds like what a Netvocate plant would post.


And who the hell is this guy Navari? What has he been trying to accomplish on the internet?



With this next tidbit, what's up with the name changes? plan9_pub got changed to Kelvin Mace. Not sure if this means anything, but I do find it odd. Maybe "Kelvin Mace" wanted to minimize people's awareness of his posts at DailyKos where he goes with the plan9_pub handle?





Kos bans SluggoJD but covers for AnonymousArmy. Bev Harris gets bashed for years on both Democratic Underground and DailyKos. Some disinfo freak named "Fintan Dunne" puts BradBlog, Bev Harris, and RawStory on a fakes list. BradBlog is added specifically because of the Curtis dog story. AnonymousArmy, without linking to Dunne, posted about the same Curtis dog story on DailyKos. AA also went after RawStory.

Hertzberg as Navari was tight with "Fintan Dunne." Has a vast network of paid fakes been uncovered? Has one of their roles been to cover up election fraud? Have they also been trying to portray the left as loony, conspiracy theorists? It's time for some serious dot connecting. Is AnonymousArmy in fact Steven Hertzberg of ESI? Have rightwingers totally infiltrated two very popular "liberal" websites? Was DailyKos a set up from the start?

Joined: 12 May 2007, 00:58

Unread post 12 Mar 2008, 18:43 #7

Hertzberg has been running a website for Ron Paul. He had also been a prolific poster at BreakForNews. That is where a "fakes list" was put out which included RawStory, BradBlog, and Bev Harris but did not include Democratic Underground or DailyKos. DU and Kos have been the places where the Bash Bev brigade have done the most damage with their disinfo campaign.

From the wayback machine, we are in fact able to link Hertzberg directly to Gelemen Ltd.. If one looks at even this one screenshot, it is not a reach to say that this looks like a product astroturfers could use to ply their insidious trade.


That is about all that is available at gelamen.com for the wayback machine. I used to think it was just Hertzberg's personal blog. Check this out.


That's the kind of thing I was expecting to find. But no dice for finding those kind of entries. Just the basic info on Gelemen Ltd..

The Election Science Institute's domain is no longer available. Why not? Why all this scrubbing? Why did Fintan Dunne turn Navari into a guest, while other people like me got their usernames stolen? Navari was turned into a guest to make it more difficult for interested folks to check out his crazy posts.

So Fintan Dunne made a big stink over the Curtis dog story. AnonymousArmy did the same thing at Kos. AA also signed off on some emails as Steve. AA was traced to Mountain View and google. John SluggoJD thinks AA might be Pelletier. I think regardless of who is who, many connections have been made among all these people with the Bash Bev brigade.

The Election Science Institute has been scrubbed. This is what one sees if they go to the domain.


Yeah, that woman is a cutie, but where is ESI with its "important work?" How come the Bash Bev brigade has gone into hiding since Hertzberg was outed? Why does Kos and some of his front page posters refer to BradBlog as "conspiracy nutters?" Are we at the doorstep of a major astroturfing ring whose main goal is to script social change or the appearance of such?

We can link Hertzberg to DailyKos in one small step. Kos is meant to be progressive. Fake conservatives like to refer to him as a "commie" for cheap laughs. How is someone who supports the CIA a progressive?

From Jaiku.com we are able to link Hertzberg to an Andrew Hoppin of NASA. Andrew fancies himself as a social activist. One can search engine his name or "AHoppin" and find a vast history of internet activity. Good luck finding any criticism of space weapons or of other problems we may have with NASA. On the one hand, this guy portrays himself as a progressive. But he is clearly a shill for NASA. And he is clearly friends with Steven Hertzberg.








Andrew Hoppin posts at DailyKos. He has also worked for YearlyKos. Here is the proof.


Anonymous Army is clearly linked to Hertzberg. Here's how. Just look at the Curtis dog story. Fintan created the myth of BradBlog as a disinfo agent. Even though Brad had a good year or so under his belt as a blogger, Fintan made it seem that this story propelled Brad Friedman out of nowhere to fame. AA made the same kind of entry at DailyKos, yet somehow he didn't link to Fintan Dunne. Hertzberg linked to Dunne back around 2003. Him and this guy Ormond {Dan Butler} dominated BreakForNews. When Hertzberg got exposed, they yippied the heck out of there and sought refuge at their ronpaulonline domain.

Assorted websites then made it seem that Fintan Dunne had exposed Hertzberg or was busy investigating him. Not true. Dunne turned Hertzberg into a guest making it very difficult to find his posts. At the same time he had a fake fight with his producer/girlfriend. BreakForNews was a fairly decent psy-op for a while. Sure, a guy like John Dean had told me years ago that Fintan was a joke. The main point is that Hertzberg did not want to be outed as Navari. He had been trying to start a "community" which was actually some kind of on-line cult. {e.g. fake this, fake that, man made global warming is a hoax, Sibel Edmonds is CIA, on and on and so forth.}

Never forget the importance of this last one. Not only did Hertzberg whitewash the exit polls from Ohio, 2004, he also strongly supported someone with ties to Karl Rove.


Joined: 12 May 2007, 00:58

Unread post 13 Mar 2008, 02:36 #8

The wayback machine for BreakForNews has already been scrubbed. I read that only the domain owners can have that done. People can try. They can also see "Not In The Archive." This was done to protect Navari/Hertzberg. Other usernames get frozen. The profiles with links to the posts can be seen. But not Navari's. His buddy Dan Butler {Ormond} had over 1600 posts. Navari , to guess, must have had around 1000-1500 posts. Good luck finding them. As Stevenstevensteven at Democratic Underground, he didn't hide behind the avatar. When he got outed at BreakForDisinfoNews, he hightailed it out of there. Now the wayback machine doesn't even work. Other people want to become guests, they get their accounts frozen with the profile still available.

Wtf is up with Bev Harris being on a 9/11 rats list? This is ridiculous. And Steven Hertzberg was a prolific poster at that dive. He did two interviews with "Fintan Dunne."

Uncovered: The Rat's Nest of 9/11


"Fintan" wrote one sentence to explain how Bev Harris got on this list.
Followed by Bev Harris' public implosion on the Randi Rhodes show to shatter the votefraud movement.
Fintan Dunne was showing his disinfo cards. Bev Harris has been concerned with the issue of election fraud, not voter fraud. She's been going after those electronic machines like Diebold.

"Fintan" used to write for a nutjob website named Rumor Mill News, while he tried to build up his own nonsense called a psy-op news. Fintan's claim to fame? He decoded an alien language. This is hidden history. But he proved many years ago that he was a paid fake. But unless people are aware of such bullshit, they may think he is just a bit eccentric. No, Fintan is paid disinfo.



Fintan Dunne, co-Editor - Psyopnews
24 August 2001

{excerpts- prime one tinfoiltainment}
On November 16, 1974 a digitally-encoded schematic was beamed from the Arecibo radio telescope on Puerto Rico. The power of the beamed message was equivalent to a 20 trillion watt omnidirectional broadcast, and would have been detectable almost anywhere in the galaxy. But it was aimed the third of a million star cluster M13, roughly 20,000 light-years from us, near the edge of the Milky Way galaxy. Even if anyone had been listening, the speed of radio waves are limited, so we should not have had a reply for 40,000 years.

But, on 17th August, 2001 two large and incredible images were imprinted on crops beside ANOTHER radio telescope - Chilbolton, near Wherwell in Hampshire, UK. In the style of the now infamous "crop circles", they are drawn by a mysterious flattening of the crop. One image depicts a replica of the schematic contained in that 1974 transmission. The other crop image is that of a humanoid face.

Either this is an incredible hoax or an incredible first contact reply....

PsyOpNews.com studied the published crop images from cropcircleconnector.com (who retain copyright). We flipped the image of the "crop-circle" schematic horizontally thru 180degrees -using Paint Shop Pro and then also mirrored it thru 180degrees. Then we could line it up with the published 1974 Arecibo schematic for comparison......

The top row gives the numbers 1 - 10 in binary notation (all the numbers in the schematic are binary).

The next row shows the atomic numbers of the key elements that make up life on Earth -- hydrogen, carbon, nitrogen, oxygen, and phosphorus.

The next four rows contain 12 groups or "blocks" of 5 numbers each, showing some of the key molecules that are made up out of these atoms -- the sugars, bases, and phosphate that make up the DNA.

In the Chilbolton ET schematic, these first six rows are exactly replicated --as much as we can be sure, given the fuzziness of an image drawn on a crop. Logically then, the ET is telling us:
Hello Earth. We are replying to your message describing yourselves - which we have understood. We too are a hydrocarbon lifeform with a similar mathematics and logic.
Back to the Arecibo schematic. The round spiraling pattern above the human figure is a representation of the double helix of DNA, with the 4 billion base pairs in a human chromosome indicated by the numbers in the bar down the middle of the double helix. One and a half turns of the DNA helix are displayed.

By contrast, the Chilbolton schematic shows almost two and a half twists in the ET's DNA on one side only. The other side has one and a half turns like ours. The central bar seems to confirm they have the same number of basepairs as we posess in our DNA. The implication is that they are trying to say:
However we have a slightly different DNA structure
Below the DNA swirl, the Arecibo schematic had a cartoon of a human body. The number to the left indicates the population of the Earth; to the right is the height of a human.

Now it gets really interesting. Instead of a human frame, the Chilbolton schematic has a figure that looks like a cartoon baby with its head enlarged for cartoon-effect. How many ET's are there? The population number block is fuzzy -but seems to differ from ours. The height of the ET's is definitely different. We show almost entirely solid horizontal block - they show a block with a gap in the centre.

Just like a cartoon, the ET's are clearly exaggerating for effect. They are saying:
We are smaller than you, with very large heads
Back to the Arecibo schematic again. Underneath the human, we see a diagram of the Sun and planets in our solar system. Now, the third planet from the Sun (Earth) is above the line made by the others, indicating that this is the source planet of our message.

Compare the Chilbolton schematic. Just under the ET's tiny feet, we see three or four planets raised above the line. So they inhabit more of the planets in their solar system than we do in ours -indicating technological advancement.

But why the curious arc between the fifth and sixth planets? It's symbolizing that the sixth "planet" is actually in orbit around the fifth --the arc represents the rotation of this "moon". This moon is also inhabited --else it would be down on the lower level of the line. So, in summary:
We inhabit three of the planets in our solar system and one moon.
At the bottom of our 1974 Arecibo message is a diagram of a radio telescope focusing rays to a point, with the numbers at the very bottom indicating the parabolic diameter.

The ET transmitter is an entirely different device. It would have to be anyway -by definition.

Because no inteligent life could have picked up our transmission so quickly --unless they have access to hyperspace capability. Because it takes literally thousands of light years for those radio waves to get any significant distance from Earth. For a moment, our 20-trillion-watt-equivalent blast of radio waves made us the brightest radio source in this galaxy. Somebody was alerted within 27 years rather than 27,000 years. That takes sense-at-a-distance hyperspace technology -either an industrial or a mind technology.

It's too early to be definitive about their transmitter. The layout looks like a beam generator -with the beam emerging out of the "lens" in the cenrer of the square box. Possibly powered by a scalar device or even piggybacking on pulsar energy.

But it's not too early to speculate on how this ET reply arrives on Earth as a crop circle image. The giveaway is that these astonishing crop images are in a field right next to a Radio Telescope - OF ALL THINGS!

Now how do we explain that?

Are we to believe that these ET's are able to direct some beam with sufficient accuracy as to land the image within a couple of hundred feet of a target on Earth. No way. If it was that accurate, then they could sign their name in the desert.

No, the explanation is that they sent the message back the way it had come. Not to precisely the same Puerto Rico radio telescope that transmitted in 1974, but to ANOTHER radio telescope. That has the hallmarks of a telepathic communication. Their message was telepathically transmitted with the mental instruction to return it to "source". The Earth did it's best to meet those paramaters when it used a field beside a radio telescope on which to draw the image........

Joined: 12 May 2007, 00:58

Unread post 13 Apr 2008, 18:56 #9

Anyone into a rabbit hole, here you go.

I'd give the title, but it was scrubbed by this apparent cult-like forum called Signs of the Times Forum. Our friend Yoyos had a good thread going, but unfortunately he wasn't gonna get a fair shake at that strange place. Ok, here's the fake title.

Fintan Dunne & Dan Butler - Interview: psychopathy

Steven Hertzberg has been operating a domain called ronpaulonline. I am not sure if it is still available. Election Science Institute has vanished, the last time I checked. Hertzberg was publishing materials from SOTT. RonPaulOnLine and what's her name, that French lady who apparently claims to have channeled aliens, they are tied to the hip. I'll get to her name in a bit.

An Online Grassroots Social Network supporting Ron Paul for President.
RPO Briefing No. 20072808-3





From the Yoyos thread:



She showed up at Democratic Underground. It's a big yawn, imho. She never explains the crazier allegations, such as channeling of aliens, yikes, and something about a raffle for a house. Fintan Dunne claims to have decoded an alien language. Who the f are these people? They are so toasted for credibility. Why don't they just go away? No one's buying their acts.

Political Ponerology: A Science of Evil Applied for Political Purposes

Joined: 12 May 2007, 00:58

Unread post 02 May 2008, 02:13 #10

I'm finding it a bit disconcerting that Brad Friedman isn't running with the football myself and John SluggoJD have provided for him. I will not throw him under the bus. I do think he is for real, and perhaps he is working on this behind the scenes. I simply believe that the major astroturfing scam that has infiltrated the election integrity movement has been totally exposed. If he can't see that, well, it is perplexing to say the least.

Another poster named Dredd has had some similar concerns. A GOP operative in San Diego has been exposed as being a top-notch hacker. One would think that would be gold for Brad. Yet, where are his comments for that discovery?

San Diego GOP chairman co-founded international piracy ring

I have done busy work on his behalf thoroughly exposing this Fintan Dunne/AnonymousArmy connection, but still no comments. The last few days I have been busy figuring out OnTheOtherHand from DemocraticUnderground. That guy turns out to be Professor Mark Lindeman from Bard College. We have been gift wrapping this information for Brad, yet all we are getting is crickets chirping in response.

{on edit- the frustration is from myself with my stuff and Dredd with the hacker story. I am not speaking for SluggoJD. He has nothing to do with my own personal writings, other than that we are friends.}

I noticed a post by OTOH from today or yesterday where he flatly blurted that he is part of the election integrity movement, and that he and his ilk aren't going away. These are fake election integrity activists. They are saying that there was no election fraud that put Bush into office. They are peddling the idea that paper audits for electronic machines are the answer. Now I think Brad needs to realise that we are getting frustrated with his lack of working with what we uncover. We aren't making one cent off of our posts, something he cannot say about himself. I am grateful he lets me post at his place, but if he isn't gonna utilize our work, what is the point. There is no way to know whether Agent99 is a plant or not. If she is, and there are some signs that she may be, how is one to know their posts won't be altered or outright deleted?

I am not gonna back down with the info I have found. If he doesn't respond, well, I will keep rephrasing, so as not to spam, until I get some answers. He has been getting trolled by Dunne, AA, Lindeman, and many others. I don't get paid squat but have been trying to help him out. I have provided him with firepower to take that punk's credibility down. I am getting very curious why he isn't utilizing the info. Maybe he is or will, but I've yet to see him ever respond to the info I've uncovered on Hertzberg. This is a tough call. I definitely do not want to throw him under the bus. Dredd seems to be getting impatient with him too.

I'll post some of my findings.

There are a couple videos one can see where Lindeman is speaking. One, he was on a panel discussing global warming. He said how it is exciting. Nice.

Here, check him out talking about annoying citizens who have hobby horses. He is talking about people like Brad who have had trouble with the exit poll and other data pointing to massive election fraud in America.

Mark Lindeman

It's tough for one or two people to do all the legwork. I'm gonna copy and past my links from various posts I made yesterday at BradBlog. I DON'T MAKE ONE CENT FROM BLOGGING. Why can't Brad have the common decency to interact with these materials?

It is pretty easy to connect the dots at this point. The election integrity movement has been compromised the whole time. The ptb's knew people would know Bush stole the elections. So they had a plan. They would discount that he stole them through the electronic machines despite the evidence. They would then try to get folks to concentrate on voter fraud. One can see how the Republicans are all over that aspect. Their main objective has been to make people accept that electronic machines are here to stay, that the only thing that is needed are for paper trails from hackable machines.

I found some very good links through searching open-source info. What I have uncovered isn't that tough to figure out. There is simply no excuse for Brad not to interact with this information, whether it is with Dredd's focus on the GOP hacker or with my links concerning Lindeman and his ties to committees who are enamoured with electronic machines.


That's the link I'll start copying and pasting from. First check out what Dredd wrote:
The story of a hacker criminal in the GOP is even on DIGG now. I know kos and MSM types are afraid of this story, because the cabal the dude is a member of can bring down any website anywhere anytime they want to.

But Brad, you say on your site as it comes up "UNAFRAID".

This hacker is from your neck of the woods and is in your face.

Are you afraid to run with the biggest hack story never told? Bradbloggers like myself would see that as so kos.

Read my post and hey everyone, spread the news around so these guys can't scrub it.
No way Bush won either of those elections. When I get the chance, I want to look more into this Mark Lindeman guy posting at Democratic Underground as OnTheOtherHand.

There is strength in numbers. Good lurkers, don't be scared. Help out.

Hey Mark Lindeman, we know you devote tons of hours reading and posting on election integrity message boards. HudsonValleyMark {sp?} at Dkos. OnTheOtherHand at Democratic Underground. Don't you have students to help out? Don't you need to write some books to get tenured? Who the *#$@ do you work for other than Bard College?

You have overstepped your boundaries. It is time for you to be exposed.

I saw you in two videos. One, somehow you were on a panel discussing global warming, explaining how it is so exciting. On the other, you were talking about annoying citizens who get on hobby horses.

How do I know you are spending an abnormal amount of time on these message boards. The other day you dug into Brad for not realising who you are at DU. You ripped into him for making the same mistake he did with Dana Houle, DHinMi or something at the DailyCIAKos.

Mark Lindeman wrote a peper with a known rightwinger Rick Brady, yet he is posting at a democratic website. He can get fairly mean towards other posters, yet never gets his arse banned. Same friggen thing happens a lot. Maybe you have Skinner in your back pocket?

A google search for OnTheOtherHand Democratic Underground returns 13,000 hits.


You should have gone away when you had the chance. Same with your buddy Febble, an Elisabeth Liddle out of England. Now wtf is she doing on the DU?

OnTheOtherHand Is Professor Mark Lindeman. He appears to be a tool for the status quo.

Students, professors, union leaders, peace groups, extra-governmental organisations, etc., it is time for you to step up to the plate. It is time we take a lesson from the French and start ramping up the protests.

How long has it been since Murtha said we needed to get the #$@& out of Iraq.


the people united will never be defeated


Hi Mark Lindeman, OnTheOtherHand at Democratic Underground. How are you doing?

Hey, I found one of those auditing planning committee panels you worked on. Are you still close with Matt Damschroeder, your fellow panelist from the following?

html format

Maybe I'm wrong, but it looks like this panel was all about going forward with electronic voting machines. Am I mistaken, Mr. Lindeman?
Kim Alexander is president and founder of the California Voter Foundation (CVF), a nonprofit, nonpartisan organization dedicated to advancing the responsible use of technology in the democratic process....

Matthew Damschroder was named Director of the Franklin County Board of Elections in June 2003...Matt was Executive Director of the Franklin County Republican Party...

Susan Gill...She served as the association's treasurer, secretary, vice president and president-elect as well as chairing the Education & Training, GOTV (Get Out the Vote) Committees. Susan is currently serving as Chair of the Rules Committee. She served on the Florida State Help
America Vote Act Planning Committee....

Joseph Lorenzo Hall is a Ph.D. candidate at the University of California, Berkeley School of Information working under information law professors Pamela Samuelson and Deirdre Mulligan. Mr. Hall's academic focus is on mechanisms that promote transparency, as core functions of our government go digital. His Ph.D. thesis uses
electronic voting as a critical case study in digital transparency.....

Candice Hoke is the founding Director of the Center for Election Integrity. She has served as a team leader of the California TTBR Diebold Documentation Review team, a member of the investigatory Cuyahoga Election Review Panel, and Project Director of the Public Monitor of Cuyahoga Election Reform....

Douglas A. Kellner...When he was first appointed to the New York City Board, he was the very first election official to call for a voter verifiable paper audit trail for electronic voting machines, a principle now enshrined not only in New York law, but in the election codes of a majority of the states throughout the nation. While leading the opposition to unverifiable electronic machines, Doug was instrumental in promoting
new technology for scanning absentee and provisional ballots......

Mark Lindeman is an assistant professor of political studies at Bard College, where he teaches about American politics, especially public opinion and voting behavior. His research and teaching interests include environmental politics and deliberative research into citizens' policy preferences. He is coauthor of Public Opinion (2nd edition, Westview Press, 2004) and has written about the 2004 U.S. presidential exit poll
controversy and other concerns regarding U.S. elections.....

Ronald L. Rivest is the Viterbi Professor of Computer Science at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, and a leader of the Cryptography and Information Security research group within MIT's Computer Science and Artificial Intelligence Laboratory......

Howard Stanislevic has been a computer network engineer for over 25 years in NYC working in various industries including telecommunications, airlines and advertising..... He has been studying the electronic-vote-counting issue since 2004, and has become a full-time advocate for verified elections --- not just "verifiable" ones. Stanislevic is the founder of the E-Voter Education Project, a group dedicated to the demystification of electronic voting...
The whois for electionaudits.org:

Verified Voting Foundation, Inc.
Registrant Name:Pam Smith
Tech Name:Edward Piou

Next Post: The Election Science Institute

I believe that Lindeman wrote a paper with Republican Rick Brady which backed the "work" of the Election Science Institute. The other day, Mark, you ripped into Brad for not knowing that you are OnTheOtherHand. I didn't know you were him either, because I was tombstoned from that place for no good reason. Unlike Brad, you don't sign off your posts with your real name.

So Mark, do you know Steven Hertzberg personally? Are you still in contact with Rove's buddy, Matt Damschroeder?

Because maybe you could ask Steven, a "Navari" at {cough, cough, lol} "Fintan Dunne's" BreakForDisinfoNews, why he has taken his Election Science Institute off-line. Thanks in advance, OnTheOtherHand, Mr. Mark Lindeman who finds global warming so exciting.

Oh, is Brad one of those annoying citizens you talk about who have hobby horses?

This was from the ESI website before it was scrubbed off the internet:

Votewatch Team
Votewatch is fortunate to have so many dedicated Team Members, Expert Advisors, and Partner Organizations working together to make our mission a reality.

Project Director
Steven Hertzberg bio

Survey Research
Dr. Susan Gabbard
Patricia Hernandez
Carmen Sum
Dr. Nicole Vicinanza

Yobie Benjamin - Chair, Technology Advisory Board
Chris Crownhart
Pankaj Mittal
Vikas Sachdeva

Susan Brissette
Wendy Hernandez

Advancement and Fundraising
Charlotte Dobbs
Marianne Gaddy
William Hertzberg
Vanessa Spilios
Art Wolf

Marketing and Communications
Laura Mytels

Special Consultants
Wally McGuire
Darius Anderson
The Darius Anderson guy produces some interesting results. Many of the folks also come from a place called {from memory} Aguirre International. I personally do not have as much time anymore to do the amateur sleuthing. Good lurkers, your help is needed.

The link to the above was:


wayback machine link

So Mark, tell us how you really feel about the electronic voting machines. Have you ever received money from an electronic machine company or advocate? What else are you hiding from the general populace as OnTheOtherHand other than your real name? Seriously, how do you find so much time to read and post on the internet? Don't you have students to help and books to write, etc.?

Have you ever voted Republican?

Do you now regret piling it on at DemocraticUnderground, so nobodies like me start snooping into your past connections?

Disclaimer: I first learned OTOH was Prof. Mark Lindeman due to the fine work of a John Dean who posts at BradBlog and elsewhere.

As for the abundance of BashBev posts at DU, I have one question for the administrator Skinner. How do you sleep at night?

Ok. One more. I should really be getting some shut-eye.

I'm smelling a lot of rats.

And I know there are some folks out there who are right there seeing the same things I am. This is not "conspiracy chatter." This is called reality backed by facts.

One link I found was to a Professor Freeman article wondering why folks like Liddle and Hertzberg were so involved in the election integrity movement based on their resumes. That could be for another day.

But this next one, Steven Hertzberg's brother seemed to by pimping for electronic machines as early as 2001. Robert Hertzberg once ran for mayor of Los Angeles.

{on edit- this next link is busting out the margins, so if one wants to check it out, please copy and paste the two coded sentences without a space in between. I try to provide the html links when I can for folks who don't want to look at pdf's.}

Code: Select all

May 17, 2001

On May 16, AB 56, by Assembly Speaker Robert Hertzberg, was placed on the Assembly Appropriation Committee’s Suspense file. This bill would require the Department of Information Technology to award grants to counties, using a 3-1 matching formula, for the purchase of updated voting systems. Specifically, it would appropriate $300 million from the State General Fund to the Department for this purpose. All counties are urged to submit letters of support to the Assembly Appropriations Committee as soon as possible
I found that after seeing the following in a google search result. But this link merely pointed to the above info, it didn't include it.

Back to Paper:A Case Study
File Format: PDF/Adobe Acrobat - View as HTML
The verified-voting movement got its start among the ...... Speaker Robert Hertzberg. (D) proposes a $300. million plan to update. voting technology. ...
pewcenteronthestatesonthestates.org/uploadedFilesEB21Brief.pdf - Similar pages
Right below that one:
DRE Analysis for May 2006 Primary Cuyahoga County, Ohio
File Format: PDF/Adobe Acrobat
Steven Hertzberg, ESI’s founder, is an Aerospace Engineer who spent his ...... recording electronic voting machine with a voter verified paper audit trail, ...
bocc.cuyahogacounty.us/GSC/pdf/esi_cuyahoga_final.pdf - Similar pages
There are tons of goodies to be found all over the internet. I'm hoping Brad can finish some of my snooping around, then both of us can go on Olbermann.


The rat is called controlled opposition. There has been a lot of fake outrage and concern that infiltrated the election integrity movement, fairly soon after Bush was crowned King of America. True leaders like Brad were to be marginalised as being "conspiracy nutters." Fake leaders like Febble, Lindeman, Hertzberg, and David "Kelvin Mace" Allen were propped up as evokers of authority.

The bottom line has been a movement to say:

Electronic voting machines are here for good. Don't worry about it you democrappers and repiglinuts.

I'm not sure why no one ever interacts with some of the stuff I come up with, but so be it. The only way I'll shut up is if I get banned.

Hey Mark Lindeman, how's it going?

{evil laugh}

the people united will never be defeated


I've located Mark Lindeman yet again working with Matt Damschroder, who to this day I still can't figure out if there are two e's in his last name. I put up some good info also on the Brian Williams thread. I am wondering if anyone is listening, if anyone cares.

Brad posts at Democratic Underground. He has the ability to go after this Lindeman once and for all. People like me get banned.

Why are the same names and groups showing up?

Why doesn't this blog allow pop-up windows for the links? Nearly every other website does. I have a free forum. Every link opens up in a new window.

Mark Lindeman, OnTheOtherHand at Democratic Underground, hanging out at the same conference with Damschroder, yet again.

Why are ordinary citizens like myself getting ignored? Why are our findings just collecting dust?


People can look into this whole thing and see that it has been scripted. I am sick of being an army of one. I am getting tired of no one else seeing what I am seeing. People are gonna have to look through links, use the search engines, and see for themselves that I haven't made anything up at all on this entire website. It is up to the reader to connect the dots that have been provided. I hope to God Brad wakes up soon and starts connecting them. He needs to stop ignoring information that is right in his face.
Last edited by socrates on 02 May 2008, 04:55, edited 3 times in total.