The_Last_Name_Left Sounds Like CarmenJonze

manufactured grassroots, disinfo, and insidious marketing
socrates
gadfly
Joined: 12 May 2007, 00:58

Unread post 30 Oct 2008, 23:57 #5

bump-


we got hacked, some asshat took control of bumping threads. Now why if this is a nothing board, does it keep getting attacked?


I have figured out the whole scam. The more they push me, the more I will add to the library of facts and get the truth across.


{on edit- I said I'd put the Egghead info on this thread, but I am going to start a new one in this public forum section on that, the Randi Rhodes Message Board, and Ben Burch. Then my trollbusting days should be just about over. I'm just tying together the loose ends. It's not that I am giving up. I will just soon not be going out of my way anymore to trollbust. I will also continue to blog when time permits.}
Nobody - I mean nobody - pulls the wool over the eyes of a Gambini
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the_last_name_left
enemy of fascism
Joined: 11 Dec 2008, 02:25

Unread post 14 Dec 2008, 17:43 #6

Hi - thanks for the registration - and the PM, Socrates.

Never heard of Carmen Jonze. :D I'm not he/she.

On 911 - you're right I've changed my mind about a lot of things. Lots of reasons for it, really, but in essense, simply for the reasons that

1) Most of the info that is touted as indicative of consiracy has been passed to us via the organs of fascist propaganda ie it reflects the views of fascists more than it reflects "the truth".
2) Having gone back to assess the sources and content of what I'd been LED to believe about 911, I found most of it is direct from the usual fascist sources - so I treat it MUCH more sceptically. I've reassessed the evidence, based on what I now know about the purveyors of it - which I didn't know when I first was looking into the info.

Applying what I've learnt over the last 3 years about far-right infiltration of 911 "truth movement" meant discarding much of what passes as the foundations of 911 conspiracy: most of the claims of 911 truth are simply factually untrue, whilst the rest are exaggerations, distortions, cherry-picking, etc.

One example - the claims that the shoot-down orders were changed in July 01. This is false. The orders were updated in 2001, but it was only an administrative update - nothing of substance changed. The actual change in the orders happened under Clinton, in 1997. This has been heavily promoted as a smoking gun - but it's all a gross distortion of the easily checkable facts. The initial source for the story seems to be Christopher Bollyn, reporting for Willis Carto's American Free Press.

Without knowing Willis Carto, AFP and Bollyn, one might legitimately accept the report at face value, as I once did. But in light of what we know about Bollyn, AFP and Carto esapecially - it's stupid to take what they say at face value.

All this stuff about Carto etc infiltrating 911 movement has to have some impact - and it does: it negates almost everything "the truthers" hold dear.

That doesn't mean that "the official story" is therefore "true", and that I unquestioningly believe it. But anyway - even if AQ and OBL were responsible - Afghan and Iraq invasion are still war crimes - and wholly illegitimate. All that stuff amounts to far greater crime than 911, even if it were an "inside job". And for me, 911 conspiracy's function has been misdirection - away from the real and obvious crimes of iraq and afghan.

In the widest sense, 911 conspiracy helps people believe that the "evil" in the world is caused by a group of people - a conspiracy. Such thinking tends to prevent people from addressing the systemic and structural reasons for "evil" ie capitalism/imperialism.

It also has a deep subtext of suggesting terrorism is "not real" - it's manufactured. Conspiracism denies terrorism, and therefore the reasons which cause it. Conspiracism denies the conditions which generate terrorism and therefore does a great service for capitalist imperialism. Because, remember, the conditions which generate terrorism are largely the result and responsibility of capitalist imperialism - poverty, oppression, dictatorship, exploitation, inequality etc.

I have a few logical objections too. For example, the claim is a "NWO globalist conspiracy" which controls world events for its own ends. But if this conspiracy already controls world events, why does it need to interfere with world events? Apparently the conspiracy that runs everything is trying to gain control of - everything! If the conspiracy already possesses total control of all world events, what is the purpose of its actions? If it ALREADY controls everything, why does it need to try gain "total control"? Nobody has ever had an answer for this question, btw - not surprising tho? lol

Also - myself, along with almost every other CT has made the mistake of adding up tiny probabilities - and thinking that makes it "possible". That's a major error as adding up tiny probabilities makes an even smaller probability, not a bigger one. And CT is predicated on this flawed logic - CT's insist on maintaining a "possibility" something "could have happened". (Although tbh if one points out the impossibilities, CT's will just move onto the next item in their list.) However, an objective person will realise that the cumulative adding up of the thinnest sort of possibilities leads to a totally improbable conclusion, whilst it also ignores the cumulative and massive weight of evidence the other way. Why do that unless one is predisposed to a certain conclusion? It's just another fraud to go along with all the others.

See - all that, and I haven't even mentioned Joooos yet. :)

So - you're entitled to wonder about my change of mind, but it's entirely legitimate. at least in my eyes :) I don't mind you questioning it - or anything I say. I haven't visited in a while and saw the post on here about me, so I thought I'd reply. I don't mind - you can question my views all you like. It makes a change - no-one else seems to care. :)

On that note, did you see the posts over at hraunfjord.org about Rivero's (apparently successful) efforts at censoring the board, and me in particular?

The wanker seemed to threaten us with the patriot act! haha. What a PRICK.
---------------------------- Original Message ---------------------------- Subject: Your website
From: "Michael Rivero" <MikeR (at) hawaii.rr.com>
Date: Sun, November 30, 2008 4:12 pm
To: trausti (at) hraunfjord.org
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


Aloha

I have had my attention callked to a page at your site,
http://www.hraunfjord.org/whatreallyhap ... 0ebaff27ff" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false

I understand and support your policy of non-censorship, but I would like
to call two points to your attention. I do not know how things are down in Peru but First Amendment protections for free speech here in the US stop at the point where malice is detectable in the writings, as it is here. Spabnk Master clearly has an ax to grind and he is using your blog as the sharpening stone.

In addition, providing private details such as my brother's previous
address for the purposes of applying coercive pressure is defined as an act of terror under the USAPATRIOT act. Given the globalist tendancies in the courts these days, being in Peru might not shield you from being an accessory if Spank Master were to be charged by any of the people named in his numerous postings.

I do not engage in censorship at my own website, but I do exercise
discretion, such as not allowing porno, and certainly I do not allow stories (or advertisers) I know to be fraudulent and misleading. It is part of the responsibility that goes with the power of running a blog.

Like it or not, we are the new mainstream, and we have to act like it.

Mike



Michael Rivero
What Really Happened
[email protected]" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false

http://hraunfjord.org/whatreallyhappene ... 127#159127" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false
Funnily enough it was a complaint about the BankIndex stuff - connecting Rivero and BankIndex by a COMMON ADDRESS.

WHY DON'T THEY WANT THIS KNOWN???????

The BankIndex dude phoned the mod of hraunfjord.org to ask to have the stuff taken down. Seems the BankIndex dude doesn't want to be associated with Rivero - he didn't know Rivero was involved with the far-right etc.

My response was to suggest the BankIndex dude be given a right to reply - and that he should use that to distance himself from, and repudiate the views of, Michael Rivero. Instead it seems the posts were removed to a non-public forum - I'm not sure. Disappointing though - I don't see why his "complaint" should lead to my posts being removed - I didn't assert anything which wasn't in the public domain, and my views are my own.

My intent is to put it on my blog - and offer him a right to reply.

Anyway - it shows what a wanker Rivero is (like we didn't already know)

ALl the best - TLNL
Reply

socrates
gadfly
Joined: 12 May 2007, 00:58

Unread post 15 Dec 2008, 22:02 #7

the_last_name_left wrote:Hi - thanks for the registration - and the PM, Socrates.

Never heard of Carmen Jonze. :D I'm not he/she.
Hi TLNL, thanks for the post.

Carmen Jonze is a paid troll username at the Randi Rhodes Message Board. I didn't think you were her. I only thought that you sounded like her. She throws around the twoofer word a lot. She ridicules the "believers" in a most harsh manner. I don't think you are harsh. In fact, you come across as the perfect poster. You are not timid. You are not afraid to research. You are always willing to answer any questions from others for clarification.

When we had our troubles, it was a different time, when it seemed appropriate to question whether you were legit. There was that craziness going on at the "unofficial" WRH forum. You gotta admit it was a crazy coincidence you having one post at DebateBothSides with it ironically having to do with chemtrails.

But I think it is natural for like-minded people to end up at the same websites. I think it is wicked awesome {Boston phrase} that we have come together to advance the work of "the mysterious S. Boyle."

Obviously I believe that all forums have been taken over and manipulated by astroturfers, if not outright rigged. What I find beyond any feasible rationale is that this Trausti guy has shut down his place to the public. Our public forum has been shut down by free forums. They were getting hit by too much spam and porno at abandoned forums. I didn't mind deleting that nonsense and adding them to the ban list, because I felt it was important to keep this place open for anonymous and guest posts.

I am upset with this Trausti guy for buckling under to Rivero. To be blunt, I don't think this adds up. I did happen to find the thread you started about this forum when we were having personality clashes or perhaps I'll take the blame for that one. But I did see that Tuddi, who I later believed to be a username named Jazzroc, was indeed Trausti. I am curious to see how you feel about Trausti hiding his forum. Obviously, he is trying to make it seem that he must comply with Rivero's letter.

And how twisted is it that Rivero's letter is very similar to the scam script that went on at the other WRH forum? This humble place here screenshot a whole thread started by yourself that subsequently can now only be read here.

I also was able to track down proof that Rivero has had a military e-mail address. He admits to having worked for NASA. I believe that NASA is part and parcel of the military-industrial complex. There's something very fishy about how Rivero has moved up the food chain over the years. And he talks about malice? I have seen no malice from either of us as regards to his now well-documented past and current associations. It is not malice to document open-source information and then provide one's own honest assessment.

Do I dislike Mike Rivero? Without doubt. He pumps out right woos left propaganda like it's going out of business. I am disgusted that Trausti has hidden all of your threads. The others, I could really care less. I never liked the people posting there. Most of them I never believed in. They reeked of hidden agendas.


On 911 - you're right I've changed my mind about a lot of things. Lots of reasons for it, really, but in essense, simply for the reasons that

1) Most of the info that is touted as indicative of consiracy has been passed to us via the organs of fascist propaganda ie it reflects the views of fascists more than it reflects "the truth".
2) Having gone back to assess the sources and content of what I'd been LED to believe about 911, I found most of it is direct from the usual fascist sources - so I treat it MUCH more sceptically. I've reassessed the evidence, based on what I now know about the purveyors of it - which I didn't know when I first was looking into the info.

These are two separate issues, imho. You have the right woos left propaganda which you and others have explained. Then there is the question of 9/11 itself. And not all the 9/11 info has been spewed out by people like Rivero, Bollyn, Carto, et al.. But yeah, most of it has derived from shady propagandists.

However, one needn't even be on-line to believe that 9/11 didn't go down the way of the official explanation. A passport shouldn't show up in perfect condition on the street below. Those buildings certainly looked as if they were the result of controlled demolition or some similar result. Building 7 fell like it was deliberate.

There are the put options. There is how all the Bin Ladens were allowed to leave the country, while no one else was allowed to fly. How 'bout how that one aircraft allegedly hit the Pentagon. How does a hijacker with miminal aviation experience fly so low to the ground without tipping a wing or something?

Then there's the fact that Bin Laden never admitted to being behind the attack. The guy has probably been dead for years. People can also talk all they want to about how the US alliance with the Mujahadeen was ancient history. But the truth is the US military did as much to develop them as any institution.

And what about the anthrax attacks? You can't get much more insider than those. I'm sure there is much more I could come up with to show that the official explanation is total hogwash. Like I said before, 9/11 isn't my expertise.

I sincerely believe that you are mixing apples with oranges. There is the propaganda and disinformation. Then there is the truth about 9/11. I believe it is okay, in fact necessary, to debunk the rubbish disinfo. But I feel that one eventually needs to get back on track. One needs to bash the paid trolls then get back on topic. To me, nothing personal, it seems you are playing on the trolls' turf with their scripts. I sincerely believe that you have done as I have. We ended up at forums that weren't concerned with the formation of informed consensus. In fact, I think that the fakes' #1 job duty is to deny us of our freedoms of speech and association.






Applying what I've learnt over the last 3 years about far-right infiltration of 911 "truth movement" meant discarding much of what passes as the foundations of 911 conspiracy: most of the claims of 911 truth are simply factually untrue, whilst the rest are exaggerations, distortions, cherry-picking, etc.

One example - the claims that the shoot-down orders were changed in July 01. This is false. The orders were updated in 2001, but it was only an administrative update - nothing of substance changed. The actual change in the orders happened under Clinton, in 1997. This has been heavily promoted as a smoking gun - but it's all a gross distortion of the easily checkable facts. The initial source for the story seems to be Christopher Bollyn, reporting for Willis Carto's American Free Press.

Without knowing Willis Carto, AFP and Bollyn, one might legitimately accept the report at face value, as I once did. But in light of what we know about Bollyn, AFP and Carto esapecially - it's stupid to take what they say at face value.

All this stuff about Carto etc infiltrating 911 movement has to have some impact - and it does: it negates almost everything "the truthers" hold dear.

You make good points. But, imho, ultimately people will think you are a "debunker" with hidden agendas. I do think you have made important contributions to internet awareness. You must have been doing something right to have yet another Rivero "unofficial" forum be scrubbed from the public's view.
That doesn't mean that "the official story" is therefore "true", and that I unquestioningly believe it. But anyway - even if AQ and OBL were responsible - Afghan and Iraq invasion are still war crimes - and wholly illegitimate. All that stuff amounts to far greater crime than 911, even if it were an "inside job". And for me, 911 conspiracy's function has been misdirection - away from the real and obvious crimes of iraq and afghan.

These public forums are shallow. No one has ever given you the chance to flesh out your ideas. The fakes, imho, were grateful to have you debunking 9/11 disinfo. However, your piling up of the truth about Rivero was not welcomed. That's when I got attacked. I dug into Rivero's past. Now listen, I'm not saying me and you didn't accomplish anything. But seriously, any other nobodies could have done what we did. We just so happened to like writing on public forums.

The problem, I believe, occurs with folks like us when we become too visible, when we post too freely. The ptb's wanted yourself to be just another cog in a script between closed-minded debunkers and crazy believers. When folks like us do not allow the application of the cookie-cutter, we get attacked.

That's pretty sick that Trausti has shut down your threads. I realise someone could sign up and read them. But few are going to do that. Trausti has turned out to be just another tool. You must be disgusted with this development.

Yeah, those two wars were illegal. They flew against what all the world wars were allegedly about, the securing of national borders. The 9/11 disinfo certainly has objectives going beyond simply obfuscating that tragic day. The dark side is using the internet to divide, conquer, and dumb down the masses.

I'm having big time doubts about this Trausti dude.

In the widest sense, 911 conspiracy helps people believe that the "evil" in the world is caused by a group of people - a conspiracy. Such thinking tends to prevent people from addressing the systemic and structural reasons for "evil" ie capitalism/imperialism.
You are correct, but where, please show me, anywhere on the internet where there is some good intellectual discussion going on. I don't see it. I do see that the posters with depth at places like Randi Rhodes and Democratic Underground get banned.


The ptb's pile on with the comic book imagery of the NWO, because they know it will repel the newbies and fence-sitters from investigating further. They are trying to create the image of the web as being comprised of mostly whack jobs and porn. Want to cover up the truth? Just saturate the internet with all the rubbish needed to make sure that every nook and cranny has been contaminated.

It also has a deep subtext of suggesting terrorism is "not real" - it's manufactured. Conspiracism denies terrorism, and therefore the reasons which cause it. Conspiracism denies the conditions which generate terrorism and therefore does a great service for capitalist imperialism. Because, remember, the conditions which generate terrorism are largely the result and responsibility of capitalist imperialism - poverty, oppression, dictatorship, exploitation, inequality etc.
Great paragraph. I agree completely. Remember that Bush/Cheney have been indicted nonsense? These jackasses wanted everyone to waste time thinking Bush, Cheney, and a few others have ruined the world. Then the thinking is that the last eight years have been an aberation.

This guy Jason Leopold, affiliated with Truthout.Org, Raw Story, and other "progressive" outlets was at the center of that nonsense. He killed two birds with one stone. He gave the audience the good old bait and switch. He also made the "progressive" internet look unreliable. He made the whole internet look like a joke. And I guess most are aware of the rightwing version of this called Tom Flocco.

It's a script. And real people are not wanted. Rivero is meant to call out the Joos. The closed-minded debunkers are supposed to be the ones debunking Rivero, not people like ourselves. And then when we exert our rights to be heard, we get our work scrubbed and our accounts deleted.
I have a few logical objections too. For example, the claim is a "NWO globalist conspiracy" which controls world events for its own ends. But if this conspiracy already controls world events, why does it need to interfere with world events? Apparently the conspiracy that runs everything is trying to gain control of - everything! If the conspiracy already possesses total control of all world events, what is the purpose of its actions? If it ALREADY controls everything, why does it need to try gain "total control"? Nobody has ever had an answer for this question, btw - not surprising tho? lol

They are working out of psychological handbooks. They do not control everything. They are bullies. They are trying to break down the human spirit into conformist compliance. How best to do that than take a smelly dump on this new outlet?

They control a lot, but there are pockets of awareness. There is also the possibility of taking what we learn and applying it off-line. They want to turn the internet into a facade of a free speech zone. Short term, they have us by the gonads. Long term, I think the truth will prevail, and the simple truths we are aware of will become common knowledge.

There is no malice in saying that Michael Rivero is shady. And I ask you now, how is Trausti not in Rivero's back pocket?







On that note, did you see the posts over at hraunfjord.org about Rivero's (apparently successful) efforts at censoring the board, and me in particular?
I missed that whole thing. I've been cutting back on my internet time. A while back, I went reading through your threads. But like before, you were the only one there I found interesting or legit.

There's something very fishy about this, especially how it is deja vu from what we went through at the alaska free press wrh forum.

And spank master was the avatar rank not your username. Rivero shouldn't have called you that.

These fockers represent people like us as drama queens and concern trolls. They are the type who would have forced the poison down the real Socrates' mouth.

That's pretty sad that Rivero would talk up the Patriot Act as if it had some legitemacy. He is a bold-faced hypocrite. He says he doesn't censor but calls it using discretion. He lumps you in with porn and dishonest stories. Yet where is even one example of you writing a lie about him or his associates? I don't see any proof of malice. I just see an idiotic letter written by a probable spook used as a justification to close off yet another forum with his logo in their name. Then he had the gall to argue himself as being part of the new media.

Mike Rivero has zero credibility. To me Trausti is now not too far behind. And I am not going to reinvent the wheel in this post. There is a long thread in the astroturfing section spelling out a lot of the bullshit that Rivero has been involved with. It is not rocket science to see that Rivero is some form of disinfo tool. That is not malice. That is what Rivero clearly is. These fockers just don't want ordinary nobodies to be the ones to expose him. They want his disinfo, like that of Jones and Madsen, to be used by the other side in a controlled oppositional script.

Funnily enough it was a complaint about the BankIndex stuff - connecting Rivero and BankIndex by a COMMON ADDRESS.

WHY DON'T THEY WANT THIS KNOWN???????

The BankIndex dude phoned the mod of hraunfjord.org to ask to have the stuff taken down. Seems the BankIndex dude doesn't want to be associated with Rivero - he didn't know Rivero was involved with the far-right etc.
Now because of Trausti, this info is no longer available except for here. They don't want this known because then the whole facade of Michael Rivero comes tumbling down.

My response was to suggest the BankIndex dude be given a right to reply - and that he should use that to distance himself from, and repudiate the views of, Michael Rivero. Instead it seems the posts were removed to a non-public forum - I'm not sure. Disappointing though - I don't see why his "complaint" should lead to my posts being removed - I didn't assert anything which wasn't in the public domain, and my views are my own.
That Trausti forum was huge too. That's beyond bizarre that he succumbed to Spooky's unsubstantiated letter and shut down the whole place to the public.
My intent is to put it on my blog - and offer him a right to reply.

Anyway - it shows what a wanker Rivero is (like we didn't already know)

ALl the best - TLNL

So instead of clearly articulating what their concerns are with proof to back up their claims, both the Bank Index dude and Rivero wish to have things scrubbed and deleted. I don't buy any of their stories. From my limited reading of Rivero, Trausti, and Bank Index connections, I think this whole thing has been scripted. I'm not buying any of it. But I do admit to trusting you right now. Take care.
Nobody - I mean nobody - pulls the wool over the eyes of a Gambini
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socrates
gadfly
Joined: 12 May 2007, 00:58

Unread post 16 Dec 2008, 03:48 #8

I'd just like to add that I have seen some of your exchanges at the Rigorous Intuition forum. That is a rigged website. I troll busted the Penguin a long time back. Jeff Wells, the owner, reeks of disinfo. He was banned from the DU for voting racist in a poll. His old moderator, Et in Arcadia Ego, is a fake. Wells is tight with Tinoire, another fake. I have even been able to tie these jackasses in with Brad Friedman and Brett Kimberlin.


You raised a great point. There is all that bullshit at RI about it being a lefty forum, but where is the socialism? Where is the thoughtful prose? How aren't there many links with substance?


Rivero gave away the game plan when he said he was part of the new media. Psy-ops are all over the internet. You were interacting with paid fakes and their sock puppets, imho.


Jeff Wells is tight with Tinoire, who is tight with Madsen and Rivero. You should realise that you are dealing with pros, regardless of how stupid their posts appear.

Nice To See Alex Jones Has Turned Into A Hate Site
Nobody - I mean nobody - pulls the wool over the eyes of a Gambini
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socrates
gadfly
Joined: 12 May 2007, 00:58

Unread post 16 Dec 2008, 03:56 #9

The Rivero letter isn't showing up with the search engines. Any chance you could salvage what's been scrubbed?
Nobody - I mean nobody - pulls the wool over the eyes of a Gambini
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socrates
gadfly
Joined: 12 May 2007, 00:58

Unread post 18 Dec 2008, 20:54 #10

There is another thread at Rigorous Intuition where the imho scripted trolling has pounced on you.

Jeff Wells made an interesting comment later on. He said that his oldest friend is Delmart Vreeland's lawyer. :shock: Some major "progressive" bloggers are now connected to the hip. Brad Friedman and Larisa Alexandrovna are tied to Andy Stephenson, Jason Leopold, Ben Burch, et al. Stephenson admitted to being an acquaintance of Vreeland. You have tied Rivero to Maynard and Carto. Rivero is tied to Tinoire who is tied to Jeff Wells. Madsen is tied to Tinoire. Rivero is tied to Jeff Rense.

And the reason folks like us aren't more public about the now obviously corrupted internet is because in short, the internet is rigged. The paid trolls come back with their divide and conquer mentioning Israel at every opportunity.

Why does everything have to have a bitter tinfoil after taste? Why can't dialogue on the internet be more free flow, sincere, and based on evidence and what has been posted?

You, my friend, are in a hornet's nest. The only reason they allow you to stay is because there are so many other usernames spewing the conspiracy theory lingo.

They know that our voices will never be allowed to flourish at places like RI. Your 10,000 or whatever posts at your home base of the WRH Trausti forum are GONE! That's bullshit.

Anyway, here is Jeff Wells admitting to being closely tied to Vreeland:


Image


These fools are predetermined strawmen, imho. They are astroturfing that there are tons of "conspiracy theory" types. You are to be pigeon-holed as being Mossad or some other disinfo tool.

I'm proud of what the few of us have accomplished. We are part and parcel of pockets of awareness. We pose a threat to the scripted zeitgeist. I think that once you realise how close you are to the trenches of paid disinfo, a lot of your internet experiences will add up to some type of catharsis.

Now I'm off to close the public forum by moving the threads into other areas. I hope you stick around. I'll never delete your posts. I won't ban you. If you want an avatar, let me know. I think only admins can add those. Uhm, that's about it. I basically wanted you to know exactly who it is you are dealing with at RI. Those people do not play fair. A brief study of Jeff Wells with his internet history and ties to others tells me that RI has been rigged from the beginning.
Nobody - I mean nobody - pulls the wool over the eyes of a Gambini
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