breaking out of the matrix

manufactured grassroots, disinfo, and insidious marketing
socrates
gadfly
Joined: 12 May 2007, 00:58

Unread post 17 Oct 2007, 01:02 #2

Myself and Don actually sent a few pm's back and forth.
He said I could post them.
Please don't take this as an attack yoyos.
These were our honest reactions to your post.


Don Smith wrote: Re: Shiny objects...

You were quite clear in your handling of ukSherlock, very civil, (God, I love that word!).
Another poster rambled on about the focus of cyber space, shiny objects, etc. You know this site like your own face so you know which one I mean. I am not acting in a "judgemental" way. However, I am always suspicious of those that disparage language on a medium which uses language to communicate. Words are how we think, a greater facility with language leads to an increase in communication skills. The sensual side of our character might be touched by words, but sensory input is a matter of living and feeling, touching and tasting.
The trend toward rejecting language as a counterproductive "intellectual" trick of "authority" is part of my worst memories of the 60's. Critical thinking is what is at stake, we each must be trusted to be our own censors. The poster went on to outline general ideas about community control over their particular environment, how local power is the solution for the problems we face.
The entire world is now "local", this medium which allows us to exchange thoughts and ideas is the most revolutionary thing since literacy.
It will not be possible to hide from the rest of the world in the future, we are all on this little blue marble sailing through time and space, and it is not large enough to fall back on provincial tribal memories.
I studied Wilhelm Reich's theories long ago, I am no expert, though I thought his psychoanalytic insights were brilliant, he lost me as a paranoiac whose manic depression pushed him to "cloud busting" and such. I am sure there is something to be found there, I have yet to meet someone that could explain it without making me reach for my tin foil hat.


socrates wrote: Hi Don,

Before I went on the recent banning binge, I had emailed may41970 first asking for ideas, because me and him ended up fighting a while back because of the knee-jerk banning of "the last name left." One of the reasons i went apeshit over "fakes" is because i never expected to end up starting my own forum. I had 800 posts over at gastronamus. Thought that was gonna be the place to mobilize with others for peace, truth, and justice. but oh well....

Yeah, I was cool with "shitlock" as May41970 calls him. Damn, i even tried to converse about the fungus idea. That made sense to me. you put yeast into the chemtrails then maybe h.a.a.r.p. it? wallah- spreads out?

From memory i am thinking the shiny objects is from the new yoyos post. Yeah, i too was put off a bit by his post. first of all, i liked the beginning of it, but why not start a thread on break for news, put it in astroturfing, post those quotes and throw in a theory or two. But then yes, that whole communal whatever threw me off. it came across as naive or the kind of stuff where people end up saying you can't live alone on a mountain. In a way, it's like the idea of cloudbusters solving chemtrails. Or rednecks with their militias. That ain't gonna get it done.

So yeah, yoyos- he says he has all this proof and stuff on steven hertzberg, yet he doesn't post it, instead he posts hip hop and then throws break for news out there as if anyone really cares about that place. Maybe I am just being an arse and should show some patience.

I had a feeling about Athena88 from the start, but until she threw out the ludicrous "dissolving clouds" comment, there was nothing bannable. sherlock holmes, yeah, he was very easy to ban-- yoyos, if he is disinfo, he is very good at it-- makes it seem he can relate to myself, he reminds me of entropian artifact, just saying enough to make some sense, but always leaving you hanging. I have always been a please spit it out kind of person. ha- like when i said yourself and i forget who else, that ur usernames were collecting dust. sorry about that by the way. Hope I don't piss off yoyos for no good reason.

I don't remember everything here at this forum, but yeah, i've a good sense of what is here. i know what i wrote in ireland years back. i've a good sense of everything i've read and learned. i don't have a photographic memory, but a good sociological imagination that C. Wright Mills spoke of.



Back to yoyos' post. I agree with you. I guess I'll just respond honestly to his post when i get the chance.
By the way, may41970 has finally scanned his taiwan chemtrail pictures, and they are about ready for uploading. we are pm'ing each other. If u saw the post on taiwan and COSMIC, May41970 is arguing that the chemtrails started being noticeable once that joint taiwan/us program started. this proves what we have been saying, what harmon snowe, urself, me, and a bunch who have got driven off of boards have been saying- this is noaa/climate change/enmod too, won't ramble on. But you have helped this place out a lot. You are right that trolls should be ignored. The new strategy I have, actually may41970 too, is that we like to annoy the disinfo- we try not to stoop to their level- me- always working on that- my temper- but uhm, just basically ignoring them, not letting them have any control over this place, presenting the top section as a "best evidence" kind of thing- moving away from talking about fake usernames to talking abour fake real names, if that oxymoron makes any sense. wow, ur email has got the blood in my brain moving, even before the first coffee.

There is hope with the internet. I am not gonna knee jerk ban anyone. some like urself and may, nature'smad, and others, I couldn't ban you even if u made me look bad. not at this point. But yeah, just trying to ban when it makes sense to ban.

This has become a forum in the form of a blog because the real lurkers are wimps and unwilling to help us out, even when they now don't even have to sign up. I am not sure if shitlock and his buddy are paid fakes. There is someone on youtube named p. iasillo who makes good videos and seems real, but then one sees him spamming tinfoil crap, that if we wish it, the chem clouds will clear away. sorry for rambling. it's what i do best.


Yeah, Reich was highlighted in my one seminar paper that got top grades. it was about freedom or fascism- our choice- got into fromm, miller, even wilhelm reich- the mass psychology of fascism. yeah my title sounded similar to the Aaron Russo dude. Anyways, I was talking with my professor one day about Reich, and he said yes, Reich was absolutely brilliant, that he was considered at the top of the field. The orgone stuff is fairly prevalent in that book I just mentioned. One can't help but notice it. But in a way, it was perhaps his way of saying eros versus the death principle. Or how I called chemtrails frankensteinian atmospheric shenanigans. And the idea of orgone didn't seem much different to me at the time than Fromm or Miller or Freud's ideas, not too different. Yeah, it sounded a bit outlandish. So I asked my Prof if he thought there was anything to the orgone. He said , he kind of sighed, mumbled a bit, and went, from my memory trying to paraphrase- Reich was brilliant. that book was brilliant, but nearly all academics dismiss that part as either delusion, mystery or just some kind of literary license.

Ok, Don, nice talking to you. If you have any ideas, suggestions, feel free to add your voice. Maybe this exchange can be added to yoyos' thread.

Don Smith wrote:Post away. My PM wasn't as polished as I would have liked, but then again I don't think a Pullitzer will be given out for the prose that appears here, but maybe.
socrates wrote: ok, I will post this exchange on yoyo's thread.
sorry free forums is such a mess the last few days.
They are working at it.

gonna go post those taiwan pictures.
I wish i was rich. I'd buy this domain, post 8 hours a day.
I think the internet has potential.
I think we have done good.
take it easy.
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socrates
gadfly
Joined: 12 May 2007, 00:58

Unread post 17 Oct 2007, 22:02 #4

yoyos wrote:First off, I would like to apologize for jumping into a topic of my choosing so early on in meeting you folks. If you want me to post the stuff that i've saved from my Steven Hertzberg research then I will gladly do so if you ask me to.
Hiya yoyos, thanks for the thoughtful response. You didn't do anything wrong at all. If someone is a member here, they have full posting privileges. And if we disagree on anything, that is no big deal. Often it seems there aren't really disagreements, that it's just a matter of context or to do with some existential differences that are moot. This debate seems to come down to the famous bumper sticker- think globally, act local.

But yeah, I would very much appreciate your posting of Hertzberg materials along with any thoughts on it. the conflict of interest seems to be the biggest problem he might be facing. He's supposed to be working for a non-profit concerned with election reform. Yet, at the same time he is actively campaigning for Ron Paul. It's also quite strange how he has been posting as "Navari" at that crazy website BreakForNews.

I got a pm from may41970 today. He started a thread at Chemtroll Central on chemtrails in Taiwan. He was surprised that no one had trolled him, nor that anyone has had any comments. I wrote back to him that real people are not going to stay at a place like that for too long. He mentioned how he could now relate to this Hertzberg thing, where folks like us don't understand why there aren't more interested. That is a big story from may41970, for it seems to get us away from the tinfoil and closer to the truth about who is behind the chemtrails. The Hertzberg thing is big too. And this is where I tend not to agree with you about the limitations of the internet. People concerned with election reform are going to eventually find our story. BradBlog and Bev Harris now know about it. And perhaps this is where local meets national or global. Word of mouth in "real life"- the grassroots-that is gonna get the job done, imho. Perhaps an intrepid reporter exists who has stumbled onto our efforts, and that person will crack the case. It is beyond doubt that Hertzberg astroturfed for Damshroder, a Republican. There is no statute of limitations on the truth. All I have asked for is that this person be investigated. And it should not be the responsibility of us two alone to get this done. But imho, we have had an impact. Sometimes, we just gotta have some faith. Obeylittle got the ball rolling. It has continued to roll here. There is even now some perspective taking shape.

I think your idea about the internet is a good one. The key for you will be to produce excellent content which enables results for positive social change. You'll just have to figure out how to produce revenue from the website in a way which isn't selfish or off-putting.
I mean you even say that the very reason you started this forum in the first place was because of how you weren't able to get any further than just discussing/arguing back and forth about even the very existence of chemtrails. This is a sham to say the least.
Uhm, the problem with the major chemtrail forums isn't really about debating the existence of deliberate aerosol operations. The problem has to do with who has dominated those forums. To me, it is the crazy believers who have ruined the great opportunity to expose and stop chemtrails through the internet. The debate between "believer" and "debunker" has been a rigged script. Fintan Dunne was popular at first because this idea of internet fakery rings true to many of us. But then we end up spinning wheels at such places that were started with the intention of rounding up all of us who would inevitably come around to that idea. Then when the real folks figure out it is a sham, we leave in a huff and become discouraged. But there are plenty of good websites, there are plenty of good people on the internet. The sham sites are established to sidetrack us.



So, that's my purpose if you are curious. I am a real person and all I really care for is starting this business so that maybe, just maybe the pertinent information on the Internet can be utilized in a manner that actually creates change that affects society and culture directly...yes, in my local surroundings.
That's cool. I wish you tremendous luck in your endeavours. Perhaps your philosophy is one needs to clean their own house first before trying to spread peace, justice, and whatnot globally. I guess I am thinking about both local and global. If we could find allies in Massachusetts to expose the chemtrails, if we can start a stink about it here, then perhaps that will help "chemmies" everywhere else.

It's like the work done in California by Rosalind Peterson. That was local. She found that barium and aluminum was spiking in Mendocino County. Before one knew it, there were sincere reports on chemtrails on KNBC, Los Angeles. Then with the youtube, etc., the word spread. Maybe this is the meaning of act local, think global. Perhaps this isn't necessarily about an either/or. Perhaps all us real people keep plugging away, do what we can, on the internet and in real life, and then eventually the critical mass is reached.

The internet has been a sham in so many ways. But I am in agreement with Don that it still has a lot of potential. Personally, I try to bash the trolls then get back on topic.



I realize that BFN is a “Disinformation Palace” – I haven’t posted there since august 15th. The only reason I posted quotes from BFN was because I thought the way obeylittle expressed himself in that post was very similar to the way I feel. Also, I felt comfortable posting obeylittle’s post because he was the one who exposed Steven Hertzberg in the first place…surely he isn’t disinfo right? The other guy, elbowdeep, I also felt a connection with, so I posted his comment as well. Plus, he seemed to also have an issue with all the fakery on the net. I simply figured you guys could relate.
It was a good post. Obeylittle doesn't believe in chemtrails, but that doesn't mean he is a fake. BFN, to me, has appeared to be garbage since about a month since I joined there. My mistakes on the internet have been that I gave too much trust before it was earned. I haven't been as smart as you to lurk and reflect. What gave it away to me that BFN was nutty disinfo was when Fintan supplied no proof for his fakes list. Also, it made no sense to me how 99% of them say that man-made global warming is a hoax. Those are statistical anomalies just like with exit polls that only disinfo creeps try to explain away.

The biggest problem, imho, with the internet are those proxies. If we read a newspaper, we can see who has put forth the info. We can write letters, investigate, etc.. For crazy tabloids, we can just ignore them. But with the internet, there are just too many websites creating noise. And then when you try to figure out who these jackasses are, you end up with some GoDaddy.com like proxy. Then all we can do is pounce on fools like Hertzberg who through arrogance and/or stupidity reveal their true identities. I really do think this is a big story. It might take a year or two to come out, and yeah, none of us will probably get any credit, but it is all right there for the exposing.

Well, if you want to ask me something…don’t hesitate, please do, I’ll answer you as best I can. I mean…you are the one who invited me to this forum…I didn’t just come here out of the blue.
You believe chemtrails are real? That's a bonus.
It'd be interesting to hear your ideas on it when you get the chance.
And the thing with myself and may41970, we don't even care if someone doesn't think they are deliberate activity, as long as they are real people and debate honestly.

The main reason this website was started was to show the world that there are those who believe chemtrails are real who do not have to rely on crazy sources or ideas to present this as a legitemate topic. I think that the disinfo agents are trying to get us discouraged about the internet's true potential. And that this is seen as regards to virtually every issue. The reason I put so much effort into "chemtrails" was because I could see how it was being shaped as craziness. Lately I have reached a point where I no longer feel like I am banging my head against the wall. That top section is solid, imho. I believe that it does do justice to chemtrail realities, that the materials presented cannot be simply brushed off like the crap which is astroturfed at the major chemtrail boards.

Overall, the reason why I am here is to network and find like minded people who might be able to help with this business. That’s why I asked the question above:
yoyos wrote: Anyone else business minded here or suddenly feels an entrepreneurial wind blowing at their back? I could use some help...
It does sound interesting, and I wish you well.
Socrates, seeing that you are from Boston, I figured that maybe I found someone who would be excited to collaborate about things in person. That’s the ultimate rational for me joining this forum…not some Steven Hertzberg online investigation. What is that going to do for me, my sister, and my children’s future? Nothing. Crap. Just waste my time.
This is where I disagree. I have come around to think election fraud is our biggest problem. Sure, your approach sounds good too. There is definitely corruption at local levels also. So maybe, again, this isn't an either/or situation, that ultimately local and global are connected.

But I am just saying, if we are able to get this one story out. If intrepid reporters and amateur web sleuths can join in, then perhaps we will have done our small part to get the ball rolling towards fair and free elections. It really stinks to the yin-yang that GW Bush was never elected. If you look at the work of Professor Freeman on the Hertzberg thread versus what ESI came out with, there is just no way both can be correct. And I do not think it is a stretch to refer to Hertzberg as an astroturfer. So my question remains, who are we to trust, a math professor or an astroturfer who has a crazy internet history and who has been insidiously posting at a crazy disinfo website? I do understand how people can become cynical. But I also think we can make a difference. There is no reason why we can't have paper ballots for our elections. We put all this money into illegal war and mayhem, there is no reason why there isn't the revenue to ensure that everyone gets to vote, and that every vote is counted. If the election fraud is stopped, that will be a huge development which could have ramifications for all the other issues we face. Perhaps if we can get rid of the secrecy surrounding the election fraud, we can do that with all other issues we are facing. I do believe that the treasonous f%#$@ on the internet are trying to crush our spirits. Yet, with baby steps, and by harnessing the efforts of all good, sincere people, I sincerely believe that eventually we can make this a better world. Such developments will be felt both locally and globally.


so, if i feel so strongly about making an impact, then i better hop to it! Doing anything else is either an escape or a distraction. I am at a point where I can start implementing this concept of mine. I just need to find the right people that can help start this thing successfully…
I respect your dreams. I think you'll find good people to join your business over time.
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socrates
gadfly
Joined: 12 May 2007, 00:58

Unread post 27 Jan 2009, 16:15 #6

Lophofo wrote:
I agree about conversations being manipulated or steered in certain directions. I know games are being played in the background. I have seen user names where it was the same person logging in and starting arguments with their other user name...a "sock puppet" if you will. Now, I'm not referring to this particular board, per se, but internet boards in general.
Thanks for your posts of late. It hasn't gone unnoticed that you have been trying to get a bit of dialogue going.

I remember a few strange things that went on with the pm's at BreakForNews. One difficult thing to figure out is whether a place is rigged to begin with or is being gamed. BFN was rigged from the start. A place like Democratic Underground is being gamed.

This forum is a case study in how an independent forum, no matter how small, poses a threat to outside forces. Maybe the cheating creeps like to make sure no independent thought is allowed to grow anywhere without planted convolution. If they can't control us, then they try to tie us into the script. Lately with Carnicom's forum, mostly I am blocked from viewing and forced to use a proxy. But sometimes that ban is lifted and I am able to see the website. It's as if the ban is lifted, because they want me aware of certain things. Fascists are all about control. They want to feel that they can steer and direct everything to fit their hidden agendas. So while both of us have been trying to figure out who is on our backs, a new thread has developed by a crazy believer asking Cliff about all the intelligence/military visiting his website. Take note that Cliff did not comment on the outrageous idea set forth about alien intelligence. Anyway, I do not believe that it is a coincidence that this thread has emerged there. Nor do I think it is a coincidence that Aubuchont is making me out to be some form of hacker. We are up against a sophisticated psy-op. But I sincerely believe that the truth will ultimately emerge. I was justified to debunk these so-called leaders promoting chemtrail awareness. I believe that the disinfo have backed themselves into a corner. All they have left is to add lies onto lies and to spread convolution. I have tried to tell them to back off. If they did, perhaps we all could have moved on. But the more we've been psy-opped, the greater chance there now is that someday they will be publically exposed, and I mean outside of the internet.

This place has been set up so the use of sock puppets is less likely. One question I have had for a while is whether may41970 was psy-opped or whether he was a part of some scam to begin with. He did steer this place towards the Michael Rivero. He did persist with arguing against anthropogenic global warming, when he should have had different priorities at the time. I called his home in Taiwan once or twice. With all that has circulated on the net, it can be difficult to not get confused and get everything straight. But one thing he said to me I have not forgotten. It was around the time he was dissing NatureIsMad, yourself, Isard, and me. He said his wife told him I sounded hungover, not from alcohol, but from life. He was making posts here about how terrible this place had become. It felt like a psy-op. But there is no way to prove it one way or the other. I'd like to think there is a chance he was victimized just like the rest of us.

Every time I wished to forget about Aubuchont, there was may41970 bringing it back in. He was getting these nasty letters from Aubuchont's ip. And that takes me to respond to your ideas about DebateBothSides. Aubuchont first made it seem like I was in legal trouble for slandering. Now he is saying that I am some kind of hacker putting malicious code into this forum. I believe that he is conducting psychological operations. Of course he doesn't look like the Lophatt/Larry character. Of course Don Smith was not the same guy as the Seattle writer. I think Aubuchont is basically trying to scare people away from this forum. Personally, I don't understand how anyone could read through his posts. He is a downright evil, nasty person.

I feel our own experiences are more akin to the Joe Schmoe theory. That was a reality show in which only one of the people was real. The others were actors. The key to the show's success was to see how far borders could be pushed without the real person figuring out the whole thing was fake.

I do think that Aubuchont is very similar looking to Stitcherman. The latter's photo was found only through sleuthing. I found the link to his photo at what was it, live journal or something? Anyway, Stitcherman fit the profile for someone make believing themselves as being crazy tinfoil. But what does Aubuchont do? He made the Stitcherman photo bigger, which distorts it. He then came up with a new photo of himself which looks far different from the one he originally posted along with Brendt's. Stitcherman had the same oversized type of glasses and many similar features to Lou. I think Stitcherman's photo was a younger version, perhaps a relative, perhaps the same guy. I think they are the same guy, because why would Lou come out with a second photo of himself which looks so vastly different than the first one he provided?

But it's all a rabbit hole. It's all about the enemy cranking up the noise with volume. I think they simply want this place to be seen as an extension of all the chemtrail forum/website blathering over the years.

The reason the fakes go with volume is that the nuggets become buried. For example, Lou is trying to make it seem that I have only recently posted email excerpts from Brad Friedman proving that Lou was posting at BradBlog as Mike. Mike on more than one occasion wrote like a debunker of chemtrails. He was also in cahoots with the cyberstalkers who messed with my username at the WRH Unofficial forum. The truth is I had posted this proof a while back, very close to the time Brad confirmed Lou as being Mike. Now he is making it seem that I have pulled this out of my hat. Not so. But it becomes a maze to keep fighting the same issues.

One just has to go read some threads over at DBS to start seeing conversations that go in circles...or that get buried and then resurrected. It's like argument just for the sake of argument...busy work for the sake of one saying they were busy doing work. But getting closer to the end goal is not really happening.
Precisely. There is no logical flow. I have gotten a thread going at DailyKos, and the same exact thing is going on. Yet the stakes are higher. An internet reporter named Larisa Alexandrovna has been outed as being a habitual liar. One notion I have developed over the years is that of controlled opposition. I didn't coin the phrase, obviously, but it is one thing I have observed which seems to be the overall problem with internet research and dialogue.

This person MajorFlaw has been the pitbull. He said once that he too has problems with the Michael Connell story yet continues to heckle me with illogical responses. He is making me out to be obssessed with Alexandrovna. He is saying that my blogpost was meant to be an attack on her and the Raw Story. Similar to what I said above about DBS, MajorFlaw has actually had the gall to make me repeat sources that have already been provided. Now Alexandrovna suggests that the whole thread is propaganda and should be deleted. Fortunately, it appears that DailyKos frowns on such actions.

Is Brett Kimberlin Really an Exonerated, Ex-Political Prisoner?

Now here for example is a way this DailyKos thread could be lost to someone interested. The more data piles up, the harder it is for ourselves to put everything together clearly and concisely. I mean, I could go to one of the other threads and post this link there. The disinfo messes with us in order to push us towards confused states. And I admit they are good at it. Unless a lot more nobodies step forward, it is very difficult to make ground on them.

But if we weren't doing a lot of things right, then of course, we wouldn't be getting all this negative attention.
I guess those are just troll tactics, though...get us to waste time instead of spending it on things that can make a difference and bring about good discussion and possibly change, by people banding togther for a common, greater good.

Those are my two "red cents."
The time wasting is a big part of it. My best internet sleuthing took place, when I cut back going after the specific chemtrail forum characters. They are heavy into the mind games. I have even recently caught Aubuchont writing with phrases I have used. I have seen this a number of times, efforts to make it seem I am part of some overall script. They get exposed, but then the fakes simply move on to the next act. They are trying to make it near impossible for newbies and fence-sitters to understand what a few nobodies have gone through, how it persists, and why it is important for us to find a way to nail them in the real world.

Psy-ops are illegal when conducted on one's own citizens. Perhaps they think this is the internet and it is wide open as regards to the law, but I believe that someday the law will extend to the internet as much as it does to outside cyberspace.

Without spilling all the Boston baked beans, there is hope that the good guys will win in the end.

They want the few Joe Schmoes to doubt one another. This is why I hold out the slim hope that may41970 was victimized rather than being part and parcel of an internet, disinfo cartel.
Nobody - I mean nobody - pulls the wool over the eyes of a Gambini
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socrates
gadfly
Joined: 12 May 2007, 00:58

Unread post 27 Jan 2009, 17:13 #7

Now I see you are blasting me at Debate Both Sides. :evil:
Nobody - I mean nobody - pulls the wool over the eyes of a Gambini
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